Do stacked plugins with their mix knobs set to zero impact the sound?
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VomitHatSteve
Hat STYLE. Not contents.
Really depends on what the plugins do and how well they do it.
It's a digital signal, if a plugin returns the exact same sample out for each sample in when zeroed out, then your premise is correct. But if they do any processing at zero, it'll have some effect (tho maybe not an audible one)
Say you have a delay which has wet and dry sliders measured in decibels. You set the dry slider to 0 (original volume) and the wet slider to -60 (volume all the way down). You'll still be getting the tiniest bit of wet signal, so your tone will be mildly affected.
It's a digital signal, if a plugin returns the exact same sample out for each sample in when zeroed out, then your premise is correct. But if they do any processing at zero, it'll have some effect (tho maybe not an audible one)
Say you have a delay which has wet and dry sliders measured in decibels. You set the dry slider to 0 (original volume) and the wet slider to -60 (volume all the way down). You'll still be getting the tiniest bit of wet signal, so your tone will be mildly affected.
Farview
Well-known member
If they are all set to zero, only the first one will see the original signal. So, if you have a delay with the mix set to zero, then a reverb plugin, the reverb will only see the delay, so there won't be any reverb on the dry signal, just the delay.
Then, if the reverb mix is set at zero, and you add a chorus effect, the chorus will only see the reverb, not the original delayed signal or the dry signal. So you will end up with a delayed chorused reverb instead of a signal with delay, reverb and chorus on it.
Then, if the reverb mix is set at zero, and you add a chorus effect, the chorus will only see the reverb, not the original delayed signal or the dry signal. So you will end up with a delayed chorused reverb instead of a signal with delay, reverb and chorus on it.
Slouching Raymond
Well-known member
They will degrade it a bit. They're not doing much, but they are still doing something.
TalismanRich
Well-known member
The easiest way to see what happens is to test it.
I pulled a track into Reaper, put 4 plugins on, but set to "zero" Compressor was at 1:1 with threshold of 0, EQ was set to 4 bands but all set flat. Reverb was set to 0 and limiter was set to 0 dB threshold.
I inverted the phase of a copied track, and then played it back. To result was total silence, not a blip on the volume meter. I even bumped up the fader on both channels to +3, and still nothing. Then I boosted the output fader to +20. Still nothing.
When I hit the stop button, I got a momentary blip which happens with some plugins. I think this was the reverb, as it was processing an IR file.
I pulled a track into Reaper, put 4 plugins on, but set to "zero" Compressor was at 1:1 with threshold of 0, EQ was set to 4 bands but all set flat. Reverb was set to 0 and limiter was set to 0 dB threshold.
I inverted the phase of a copied track, and then played it back. To result was total silence, not a blip on the volume meter. I even bumped up the fader on both channels to +3, and still nothing. Then I boosted the output fader to +20. Still nothing.
When I hit the stop button, I got a momentary blip which happens with some plugins. I think this was the reverb, as it was processing an IR file.
Pinky
and The Brain...
Instead of setting them to zero, just deactivate them. In Cakewalk at least, any plugins I have set on a track can be toggled on/off just by clicking on them. This also ensures they're not using processing power while doing nothing for you, but you also don't want to completely remove them for whatever reason.
Gtoboy
Well-known member
Um, a plugin is not an audio path, so, expanding on Steve's comment, it depends on the code of each plugin. In essence a plugin is an instruction set to perform numerical operations on a digital representation of audio, no actual audio is involved.
Therefore if the plugin design is such that with all controls "zeroed" NO operations are designated to be completed by the instruction set then no changes will take place in the digital file representing the audio.
If, however, the plugin is written to be, for instance, a recreation of a piece of analog gear, the instruction set may be written so that if that particular plugin is instantiated it automatically has a base operation that it will apply. Some plugins have this feature selectable.
Long story short- it depends on the plugin.
Order of operation will effect the final sound as has been mentioned
Therefore if the plugin design is such that with all controls "zeroed" NO operations are designated to be completed by the instruction set then no changes will take place in the digital file representing the audio.
If, however, the plugin is written to be, for instance, a recreation of a piece of analog gear, the instruction set may be written so that if that particular plugin is instantiated it automatically has a base operation that it will apply. Some plugins have this feature selectable.
Long story short- it depends on the plugin.
Order of operation will effect the final sound as has been mentioned
Slouching Raymond
Well-known member
I disaggree Gtoboy.
It is a digital signal processing audio path. If it is 'plugged in' it is altering the audio.
It is a digital signal processing audio path. If it is 'plugged in' it is altering the audio.
TalismanRich
Well-known member
That's clearly not always the case as the screengrab I posted shows. The sum of a processed file and an inverted version of the same file was zero! In this case, I had 4 plugins active. It did NOTHING to the file. I actually did a render of a short portion of the above test and zooming in as far as I could gave a perfectly straight line.
TalismanRich
Well-known member
As a follow up on this, I tried the same thing with a couple of other plugins, such as the Shattered Glass SG1566 which is a preamp emulator. It did NOT null when summed with an inverted track. Nor did the Analog Obsession Bitpressor. However, I'm not sure if those were set to be zero effect. I left the setting at default, so clearly they have some processing going on.
So the answer to the OP's question is .... it depends on the plugin. However, it's easily tested.
One other interesting thing I did was to test the output that I did with the plugins I had enabled above. I did the summing two ways, with and without dither at 24 bit. With dither you can see the random noise added. After normalizing the signal 90dB (that might be the max that Reaper will normalize to) and zooming in on the file, you can see there is a noise level around -50 dB with the dithered sample. So the dither would be around -140dB in the box..? No level at all with the non dithered sample. The dithering sounds pretty much like tape hiss, just extremely low in level. Attached is a screen grab of the two files compared.
So the answer to the OP's question is .... it depends on the plugin. However, it's easily tested.
One other interesting thing I did was to test the output that I did with the plugins I had enabled above. I did the summing two ways, with and without dither at 24 bit. With dither you can see the random noise added. After normalizing the signal 90dB (that might be the max that Reaper will normalize to) and zooming in on the file, you can see there is a noise level around -50 dB with the dithered sample. So the dither would be around -140dB in the box..? No level at all with the non dithered sample. The dithering sounds pretty much like tape hiss, just extremely low in level. Attached is a screen grab of the two files compared.
CrowsofFritz
Flamingo!
That‘s just not true, and it’s nothing you can agree or disagree with. Just something you accept or don’t.
Slouching Raymond
Well-known member
You seem to have proved both sides of the argument Rich. Very diplomatic.
I don't know what you're getting at there CrowsoFritz.
So what exactly is a plug-in?
It can only be DSP to do what it does.
This means an arrangement of delays multiplications and sums, with recursive algorithms.
Filters will abound in the algorithm.
There is a choice of Finite Impulse Response filters, or Infinite Impulse Response filters.
The IIR filters are more efficient processing-wise, but use feedback.
If you initialise an IIR filter, and feed a zero signal into it, you get zero out of it. Great.
Once you feed a signal into it, the signal will wash around the feedback path.
If you then make the input signal zero again, the feedback you caused continues to wash around the feedback path,
and will never get back to its initialized state. This is called Limit Cycle Oscillations.
If anyone has a better explanation, I'd like to hear it.
I don't know what you're getting at there CrowsoFritz.
So what exactly is a plug-in?
It can only be DSP to do what it does.
This means an arrangement of delays multiplications and sums, with recursive algorithms.
Filters will abound in the algorithm.
There is a choice of Finite Impulse Response filters, or Infinite Impulse Response filters.
The IIR filters are more efficient processing-wise, but use feedback.
If you initialise an IIR filter, and feed a zero signal into it, you get zero out of it. Great.
Once you feed a signal into it, the signal will wash around the feedback path.
If you then make the input signal zero again, the feedback you caused continues to wash around the feedback path,
and will never get back to its initialized state. This is called Limit Cycle Oscillations.
If anyone has a better explanation, I'd like to hear it.
markmann
Active member
@cfg, that was an interesting question which is timely for me because I am planning to do automation in a similar way very soon. I think @TalismanRich and @Gtoboy gave really good responses. I will be testing my plugins before I use a zero setting for automation. Thanks guys.
Gtoboy
Well-known member
There are digital signal processors. They have A/D and D/A. Audio goes in, gets digitized, effected, coverted to analog and comes back out. That is not how DAWs work. A recorded file is purely digital in a DAW. Nothing will change that digital representation unless the software instructs it to.
Slouching Raymond
Well-known member
Of course it is purely digital. Everything in a digital computer is digital,
including the audio signal I referred to. It is in the form of a stream of numbers, but it is an audio signal none the less. Just like the ones that flow through SPDIF cables.
The digital audio stream flows through the plug-in, as I said, which performs DSP operations on it.
DSP has its roots in astronomy, where the movement of celestial bodies could be monitored and calculated.
DSP could be deployed on a humble Z80 2MHz processor, but only for signals very much lower in frequency than multitrack audio.
You could perform all of today's DAW plug-in DSP operations with just a pencil, notepad, and pocket calculator. Just not in real time.
DSP chips were developed, to specialize in performing tight repetative algorithms, on data streams.
What is absolutely amazing is that general purpose processors, like those used in PCs have developed so far from where they started,
that they are now capable of performing real-time DSP operations on multi-tracks of audio.
It is this advanced capability that has led to DAWS being possible, and sophisticated plug-ins being able to be added to them.
The plug-in will set up some data srtructures, and then operate in a tight loop applying its DSP algorithm to the digital audio stream passing through it, and
produce a new digital audio stream being the processsed result.
Plug-ins are all about number-crunching the digital audio stream.
Going back to my first post, the digital audio stream IS the audio signal.
I do not see a real difference between electrical analogue audio, and the sampled digital audio stream.