Distorted guitar meat

  • Thread starter Thread starter ecktronic
  • Start date Start date
ecktronic

ecktronic

Mixing and Mastering.
Does anyone know how to go about trying to get a real deep lo end on distorted guitars without getting a muddy or boomy tone while still keeping the bite/presence?

An example of this deep lo end in the guitars would be Deftones.

http://www.deftones.com/5_2/site.html

Click link and go to albums, Around the Fur, My own Summer.
for an example I am striving for. :)

Eck
 
My set up is a Gibson Les Paul Standard going to a Mesa Boogie Triple Rectifier to 4x12 Mesa cab.
And PRS McCarty Soapbar going to a Marshall JCM2000 DSL50 to 4x12 1960 cab.

I am using 2 (same mics) Shure mics, they look just liike SM57s but arent, I dont know the name of them.

I was thinking of trying to layer lo end guitar tracks by using a Shure Beta52a (bass mic). Is that silly? :)

Eck
 
First things first, get a good sound at source. Fiddle with the amp until it sounds like you want it to, then pick out a mic that picks up the specific qualities you want.

Try your luck with the '52, experiment!
 
It sounds like you EQ'd all the "meat" that you are talking about out of your guitar tone. Maybe it is how it was recorded. I don't know, since your didn't tell us how it was recorded.

To get the kind of sound you are talking about, the only EQ'ing you should probably be doing is to roll off the low end rumble below 80Hz. Maybe a little tweak to take a tiny bit of boom out somewhere around 500-600Hz

I don't know how you recorded your guitar, but I have had the best luck getting a super heavy sound by close micing the amp, and by close, I mean like 1-2 inches off the grille. Try dead center on the speaker, and if that is too bright, move out towards the edge until you get a sound you like.

- Crank your amp up to the level you would play on stage.
- Crank the gain down to about 3/4 of what you use on stage, and increase a little at a time if you need more. Using too much gains make your recorded tone sound weak.

Hope that helps you out.
 
ecktronic said:
What is the 52 Experiment?

Cheers,
Eck
Click to expand...

52; experiment.

What I meant was, mic it with the Beta52 and see for yourself if it works. Your tone on that sample is v. trebly, try close-miking with the SM57-type mics you have, then putting an LDC (AKG C3000 or C414 i've found can work) about a foot back to catch the low end warmth, then mix to suit.

By the way, I dunno what anybody else's opinions are, but I wouldn't generally bother with a second mic of the same type, just double-track more guitar parts...
 
If the source tones are good, then your recorded tone should be good.

There is no such thing ... and I repeat, no such thing, as good source tone but bad recorded tone. It doesn't exist any more than unicorns or leprechauns. So get it out of your head. Get it out of your head. Get it out of your head.

There are no magical mic'ing, EQ or compression tricks to this stuff, my friend. I'm listening to your example right now, and I'm hearing what sounds to me like a pretty meaty guitar in there somewhere. Yup, I'm hearing it clear as day. Oh but wait a minute ... What's this? I'm hearing this god-awful discusting presence boost on top of it all that's sabotaging what would otherwise be a strong, meaty guitar track.

And knowing the two amps you're working with, I'm pretty sure the culprit is that round knob on your Rectum Fryer marked "PRESENCE." :D Dude ... kill that presence knob. NOW. Rip it out of the amp and throw it away. If it's one of those BBS Maximizer suck knobs ... then do yourself a favor; rip it out of your rack and throw it in the nearest dumpster.

I want to hear a remix with just the DSL-2000 on there. And if you think you can behave, I'll let you throw in another track with the Rectumfryer ... if you promise me you'll tear that evil presence knob tone robber off your amp. :D Then we can start talking. Until then, I don't want to hear you crying in your beer over how your guitar isn't meaty enough. You have the tools to make it meaty if you want it bad enough.

.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: grn
Thanks all for the info.
I have tried the far mic technique before. I used a NT2, but didnt sound too great when I brought it in phase with the close mics.
Im totally with you on the presence thingy.

It turned out my tone was a bit muddy and the other guys tone was a bit too presencey. So we recordedmore tracks last night and im gonna post another sample very soon, this time without drums probably.

Cheers,
Eck
 
chessrock said:
There is no such thing ... and I repeat, no such thing, as good source tone but bad recorded tone.
Click to expand...
I totally disagree... what you're saying is mic position doesn't make a difference.

Mic position makes all the difference... but it won't make a bad tone sound good.

One has to start with a tone that is good for recording. Because it may sound good in the room doesn't imply it will record well. Don't be afraid to use more treble than you think you need.

Proof is in the pudding... check my clips in my SIG. If you can't find anything you like, then totally disregard the rest of this. If you find something, then read on.

I'm referring to tracking heavy guitar

Hi Gain levels do not cause thin distorted tones. Thin distorted tones do.

Use Dynamic mics. 57, i5 and md421 are very good mics for this

Condensers do not work as well. I recommend you avoid them.

Moving the mic one inch will make a significant tonal difference.

Hear what the mic hears. Use a descent pair of isolating phones during mic placement. Put the mic in the best spot you can find. I've found very close pointed just off center is a great starting place. Moving away and closer will make a huge difference in the treble pickup. Actually moving out may cause the treble to go up. Don't be afraid to put the mic very close. Moving side to side, again, makes a huge difference in the mids and treble. Less for the bottom.

post tracking... experiment with taming these frequencies
2.3KHz narrow notch
7.5KHz narrow notch

low pass at somewhere between 5K to 7.5K. the better you get at tracking and setting your amp, the less you need this

other frequencies to play with (tame)
400Hz
800Hz
1.2KHz

Hi Pass around 60 to 80 Hz

if the tracked bottom is boomy, put a MBC 270Hz and below and compress... Atk:10ms Rel:50Ms Ratio:~2:1 to 4:1 to taste

Layer two guitars with one scooped and the other with more mids

Heavyness actually comes from the Bass Gtr

Here's a short clip I just tracked a couple of days ago

Clip

Good luck
 
Overlooking the original mix.

Ok, I've seen this a thousand times. Well, done it throughout highschool. And botched recordings for YEARS before figuring it out. For starters, stop playing and fiddling with your amp for a few days. Don't listen to the cd's you are trying to simulate for a few days. Listen to some unplugged stuff or something.
THEN............
Start with fresh ears. From zero. But...........
Take into consideration that the guitar tone you are hearing on Deftones cd's is NOT what is coming out of the amp during the studio sessions that lead to the finished product. There are drums, bass, vocals, fringe sounds, eq-ing, individual compressing, full track compressing............ect, ect. All of these elements affect the original signal and cause the illusion that what you hear on the cd is where you need to start.
Now the Deftones have a fairly intense, saturated sound. very produced. Trying to mimic that style sound without having a whole band formation there to fine tune all the frequencies together is HARD. Get your hands on a good live recording of them, that will take you a little closer to where you should start. Once you get your rig sounding good, try this.........
(by no means is this in anyway definitive, just the way I personally find to be most effective)
Put your amp in a corner or closet or confined area if you can. Take a boom mic stand and load it with a Sure SM57. My own "sweet spot" is about 1 inch out from the center "bubble" of the cone, turned off axis so that it is pointing at a 90 degree angle towards the surface of the speaker, about 1 inch away from its surface. Volume should be pretty loud, not implode your eyes loud but jam loud. With isolation head phones on, slighty change where the mic is positioned on the cone and go from there.
I know that is very old school and there are some people reading this now saying "Why would he recomend this?". But hey it is really inexpesive and it works pretty well. I've actually recorded tracks Ramones style, with the mic draped over the top of the amp, duct taped in place and hanging by the cable centered in the cone. I don't recomend doing it every day, but works well when doubled. Nice and raunchy. Once you get your own formula, you will swear by it. Try stuff out.

stasis
 
Keiffer said:
I totally disagree... what you're saying is mic position doesn't make a difference.

Mic position makes all the difference... but it won't make a bad tone sound good.

One has to start with a tone that is good for recording. Because it may sound good in the room doesn't imply it will record well. Don't be afraid to use more treble than you think you need.

Proof is in the pudding... check my clips in my SIG. If you can't find anything you like, then totally disregard the rest of this. If you find something, then read on.

I'm referring to tracking heavy guitar

Hi Gain levels do not cause thin distorted tones. Thin distorted tones do.

Use Dynamic mics. 57, i5 and md421 are very good mics for this

Condensers do not work as well. I recommend you avoid them.

Moving the mic one inch will make a significant tonal difference.

Hear what the mic hears. Use a descent pair of isolating phones during mic placement. Put the mic in the best spot you can find. I've found very close pointed just off center is a great starting place. Moving away and closer will make a huge difference in the treble pickup. Actually moving out may cause the treble to go up. Don't be afraid to put the mic very close. Moving side to side, again, makes a huge difference in the mids and treble. Less for the bottom.

post tracking... experiment with taming these frequencies
2.3KHz narrow notch
7.5KHz narrow notch

low pass at somewhere between 5K to 7.5K. the better you get at tracking and setting your amp, the less you need this

other frequencies to play with (tame)
400Hz
800Hz
1.2KHz

Hi Pass around 60 to 80 Hz

if the tracked bottom is boomy, put a MBC 270Hz and below and compress... Atk:10ms Rel:50Ms Ratio:~2:1 to 4:1 to taste

Layer two guitars with one scooped and the other with more mids

Heavyness actually comes from the Bass Gtr

Here's a short clip I just tracked a couple of days ago

Clip

Good luck
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply.
I realise that the bass makes up alot of the meat in the lo end of a heavy song. The thing is when listening to Deftons I can hear a very deep lo end coming from the guitars, not just from the bass. This is what I am looking for. I can get a decent guitar tone, its the low end I cant seem to work out.

My lo end is always wavey and boomy rather than solid and tight like Deftones. I tried techniques like using bass enhancers, sending only the lo end to a compressor and tucking below the original track. NOne of this really worked. The only way I got a semi decent lo end was very carefull EQ cuts in the lo end.

Cheers,
Eck
 
if the techniques I recommend don't get you there with minor adjustments, then probably look at another pickup, amp and speaker combination.

as for the bass, back off on the amp and move the mic. again, doing this with decent isolating phones on and listening as you move the mic. if you can reamp, then record a Chug-Chug-Chug and more and play that whilst positioning the mic and adjusting the amp.

also, the Deftones guitar may not be a deep as you suspect.
 
Keiffer said:
if the techniques I recommend don't get you there with minor adjustments, then probably look at another pickup, amp and speaker combination.

as for the bass, back off on the amp and move the mic. again, doing this with decent isolating phones on and listening as you move the mic. if you can reamp, then record a Chug-Chug-Chug and more and play that whilst positioning the mic and adjusting the amp.

also, the Deftones guitar may not be a deep as you suspect.
Click to expand...
Thanks again.
I undsrtand what you mean by the guitar tone might not be as deep as I suspect, but I have carefully lsitened to the lo end of the deftones guitars on their own, and they are the deepest Ive heard from distorted guitars.

Im gonna try out backing away from the cab a bit with the mic, but Ive just got the feeling Ill end up with a loose lo end rather than a controled lo end.Suppose I can only try. :)

Eck
 
I'm with Keifer.

The best way to get good bottom end on your grinding guitar is to put it there with the bass guitar. It even helps to set a high pass filter for the guitar, to give the bass its own space.

Lock the playing of the two parts together and you've got that sound.

Don't spend a lot of time with just your amp and guitar trying to get the sound of the Gods. You'll end up with a tone that sounds like mush in the mix as it smears across every band in the frequency spectrum.

I'm not an expert, but I guarantee I've made many more mistakes than you.
 
Todzilla said:
I'm with Keifer.

Lock the playing of the two parts together and you've got that sound.

Don't spend a lot of time with just your amp and guitar trying to get the sound of the Gods. You'll end up with a tone that sounds like mush in the mix as it smears across every band in the frequency spectrum.
Click to expand...
very good advice...

have the bass gtr tone as similar to the guitar as possible... seamless as possible
 
I only listened to your music clip and didn't read the other threads.
I think that you should tune your guitar down. Maybe it's my ears or the record but you are playing in E or D. Get thicker string gauges and try to play in B or C.
And once you've done that buy a 7-string and you'll have real loooow end :D
 
amok said:
I only listened to your music clip and didn't read the other threads.
I think that you should tune your guitar down. Maybe it's my ears or the record but you are playing in E or D. Get thicker string gauges and try to play in B or C.
And once you've done that buy a 7-string and you'll have real loooow end :D
Click to expand...
yeah that would help for sure.
Cheers.

I understand the whole bas and guitar merger thingy in the lo end, but im trying to get the tight controled lo end on the guitars before adding the bass. I suppose it would help alot to have the bass in tehre, but Ive not recorded it yet :)

Thanks all.
Im gona post a new clip soon.

Eck
 
Elton Bear said:
First things first, get a good sound at source. Fiddle with the amp until it sounds like you want it to, then pick out a mic that picks up the specific qualities you want.

Try your luck with the '52, experiment!
Click to expand...
I tried the 52 experiment last night and it worked well.
It added a lo end that I just couldnt manage with my SM57 type mic.
Im gonna use this techinque from now on even if some folk might think its a crazy idea!

Eck
 
ecktronic said:
yeah that would help for sure.
Cheers.

I understand the whole bas and guitar merger thingy in the lo end, but im trying to get the tight controled lo end on the guitars before adding the bass. I suppose it would help alot to have the bass in tehre, but Ive not recorded it yet :)

Thanks all.
Im gona post a new clip soon.

Eck
Click to expand...

see, the thing is, you can't think like that. you need to think of benifiting the whole mix instead of one section of the mix. try removing some of the 120-200 htz in the guitar and slightly boosting it in the bass. also, with deftones, the bass guitar generally sits underneath the kick in the freq spectrum so, boost the kick at 100-110 and roll off everything below it. also, boost the bass guitar from 65-90 htz and cut the 100-110 (as well as a roll off on the 30 htz. 30 hertz is dirty hertz man). this will give a really deep sound that your looking for. if you can, try and achieve this in tracking as much as possible because you don't want to boost a frequency in mixdown that isn't there in tracking. all you'll get is noisy bullshit. hope this helps
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top