dilemma looks for answer

[dobro]

Here's the dilemma: I track guitar and vocals at the same time, because the performance is better that way. When I use a less sensitive mic on the guitar (AKG C1000), the problem is hiss on the guitar track because the C1000 isn't very sensitive and needs to be cranked up for a classical guitar, hence the hiss. But when I use a Rodent instead of the AKG on guitar, although track hiss disappears, the new problem is that it picks up on the vocals and I get an unpleasant echo on the vocals.

Anybody got any suggestions as to how I can use two sensitive mics at the same time without the rubbish on vox? I've got the two mics positioned so as to reject as much as possible of the other sound source.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

Change the way you do the recording!

Lay a scratch track down of your vocal and guitar combined on one track (click on another if needed!), then re-cut the guitar and vocal separately using the scratch. You should be able to duplicate the performance quite easily (hell, you wrote the tune right???)

This way, you've avoided leakage, and you've maintained your performance feel....

Just a thought......

Bruce

 

[dobro]

Thanks for the idea, but I'm not enough of a musician to make that work - I've tried laying down guitar and vocals separately before, but I just screw up the timing a lot. I know some people are recorded in studios with guitar and voice simultaneously. For instance, I recently saw a documentary about Nick Drake, and either the engineer for Bryter Layter(John Wood) or the producer (Joe Boyd) was at the mixer, bringing up one track at a time to show how the song had been constructed. He started with the guitar, which is what they based all of Drake's recordings on. Good sound on the guitar, and because the mic was so sensitive, you can make out the vocals in the background really clearly. But in the mix, that doesn't interfere with the overall sound. So there are ways to do it.

How about this: a hypercardioid. Hypercardioids have really extensive rejection of all sound coming from behind them, right? And then maybe work in some kind of booth, or surrounded by gobos to cut down on reflected sound. If the mic had some kind of bass pad, I might be able to work it even closer to the soundhole. What do you think?

Oh, btw, that album by Nick Drake, Bryter Layter, is wonderful wonderful.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

How about this: a hypercardioid. Hypercardioids have really extensive rejection of all sound coming from behind them, right? And then maybe work in some kind of booth, or surrounded by gobos to cut down on reflected sound. If the mic had some kind of bass pad, I might be able to work it even closer to the soundhole. What do you think?

...then maybe a new room, a new console, new mic pres, and of course then you need new monitors, maybe some new cans!

He-he - admit it Dobro, you're just looking for a reason for a new rig!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, I guess I'd already assumed that you were using at least cardioid mics to minimize leakage 0 you could certainly try a hypercardioid....

The other thing is that you try and go for the natural sound of a singer and guitar playing in a room (assuming the room is at least reasonable sounding!)

So get someone who's ears you trust, sing and play in the room you intend to record in, and have your partner move around the room listening for the one spot it sounds best in. When you find the spot, put a condenser there in omni mode and record it...

Bruce

 

[Tekker]

I've tried laying down guitar and vocals separately before, but I just screw up the timing a lot.

Try recording with a click track.

 

[dobro]

Bruce, Tekker - thanks, I appreciate your responding to my current dilemma, so I'll respond too.

Bruce - at one point last night, I stuck the two Rodents out about 2' angled apart and recorded myself singing and playing. It wasn't any kind of sweet spot, but I wanted to compare to the close-miking approach. One thing I found was that I sing way louder than my guitar, so I can't go the 'one or two mics out in the room covers everything' route. My wife says I'm always too loud when I'm talking too. So, I've established that:

1 I'm slightly deaf

2 I have to close mic myself to make this work

Anyway, tonight I tried this: slight repositioning of mics + strategic placement of heavy carpet behind guitar mic so as to cut down on reflected sound. It worked quite well, and now both guitar track and vocal track sound much more isolated.

Tekker: what's a click track and how do you make it work? Does it mean I have to sing and play at different times?

 

[CyanJaguar]

I tried this with a friend, and I think that this is what bruce was talking about.

Use one mic and record both the vocal and guitar live. Perfectly.

then arm another track while playing back the first one. Record your guitar. This way its like your just doing the exact same thing with the guitar, except that you can hear your vocals.

then mute the original track and record the vocals over the guitar, Or you can even record it while listening to the vocals on the first track.

that should work perfectly.

 

[guhlenn]

click track puts clicks in... so you can play the guitar part... and asfterwards sing the part and use the same click setting... it's a drummer with no hassle!!!

guhlenn