Delving into the world of latencies... (help..???) :op

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WATYF

WATYF

...happier than you.
O.K... So here's the deal. Up to this point I have used Delta's "Monitor Mixer"....... as a monitor. (go figger.. :p) My mic runs straight into the card and straight back out of the card into my cans, and the playback runs straight from the card into my cans.. So, while I'm recording, I can hear myself, and the previously recorded tracks. Well, it ends up you aren't really supposed to record like that... (once again,.. go figger :p) What I should be doing is using the "Live" playback while recording, so I can hear the music being played back, and my voice (with the effects applied to it) exactly as it's gonna sound when it gets recorded.

I tried that method out for the first time last night... and.. well.. it works great... (yet another, "go figger" :p) but now I have a problem.. now that I'm no longer using my "make-shift" method of monitoring, (which I can't even remember how I figured out :p) I have to deal with the dreaded "latencies".

Basically, I'm a little confused. Not so much aboot "what are latencies" or "how do you set them"... because it's pretty darn easy to set them in n-Track... my main confusion is... "how do all these people with PII500's and AMD K6's get anywhere when it comes to recording...???? :eek: I have an Athlon XP 1900+. It is fast. (as if I needed to tell you that.. :p) I has one of the fastest mobos in its class (soyo dragon plus).. it has one of the fastest HD's in its class (Maxtor D740X series) and so on and so forth... but... it can't handle even the decent latencies...

What's the deal?!?!?

In order to get truly instantaneous "playback" of what you say into the mic, I have to set my latencies down to 64 or 128 (with 2 buffers). But if I do that, I can only handle recording while listening to one track.. and once I've recorded the second track... n-Track can't handle playing both of them back (with a few effects on each channel). I get pops and clicks and then eventually it says that it had to stop playback to avoid a crash. Before messing with latencies, I would record and mix songs, routinely, with 10+ tracks in em.. (and with plenty of plugins applied to every single track), but now I can barely eek my way through two.

So, my question is two-fold. 1) How do I set latencies so that they give me a truly "live" monitor of what I'm saying into the mic (none of that millisecond delay crap) and allow me to listen to a large number of tracks during playback? and 2) How in theeeee heeeeeell can people with slower computers even use latencies??? Do they use something else? do they not hear what's going into the mic at all, and just not use monitoring?? *egad* I sure would like to know... cause I thought my system was "smokin" until I started messing with these latencies.

WATYF

P.S. Yes,.. I am cross-posting this because I'm not sure if it's an "n-Track specific" issue, so I want more input from average computer recorders too.
 
What OS and drivers are you using? You want to be using the Delta WDM drivers and WinXP or Win2000 to get the lowest latencies and best stability. However, I don't know if N-Track is designed to take advantage of the WDM drivers.

Also, there is no such thing as "no delay." However, anything around 5-7 ms should be OK and not noticeable.

You are correct, there is a trade-off between the number of tracks and effects you are using, and how low you can set your latency setting. Some people archive unneeded tracks and lower their latency while recording, then unarchive them and raise the latency back up when playing back.
 
Latest Delta drivers running on Win XP Pro. And yeah,.. I know there has to be "some" delay.. but you know what I mean.. I don't want a delay throwing me off beat or anything stupid... I want it to "sound" instantaneous, even if it's technically some minute delay.

My system is tight (latest everything.. 4in1's, service packs, drivers, you name it)... It's just surprising that I would have to set the latencies so low just to get a "usable" playback and not be able to play more than two tracks.

WATYF
 
Dude, using live input processing is NOT how most people record. Most people do not use DX effects while they're recording because of the latency involved. If they do, they do a mixdown first so they can record the new track only having to playback one or two tracks at a time. People who say, "woohoo I get latencies of around 5ms" are NOT people who work with 24 track projects!

Stop using effects (turn off live input processing) while you're recording, and you won't have to worry about latency. Almost every soundcard will support zero latency monitoring which means that inputs are routed to outputs prior to processing while you're recording. This is by default.

It's a topic of minor debate, but often vocal tracks are laid to tape DRY. Engineers might put some effects on the headphone mix for the musician, but the track itself will be put down without anything.

I suggest that you learn to capture raw sounds and worry about applying effects later...or get some outboard effects if you must use them while you're recording!

And as a rule of thumb, you need to get your latency down under 10ms to not notice any delay.

Slackmaster 2000
 
OK... so I talked to an engineer friend of mine today and he told me the same thing.. (go figger.. :p) "You shouldn't be recording with effects"... but, of course, last night was the first time I had ever messed with live monitoring, so I guess I have a pretty good excuse for doing it wrong... :p

So... having said that... how do I monitor in n-Track? What's the best way to do it? No effects.. just straight dry signal. How do I set it up? I can't really use the Delta Monitor Mixer anymore, because I'm only running one channel in now. I used to run stereo out of my behringer mixer into the Delta, so I got a stereo "monitor" in my cans, but now I'm running mono out of my VTP-1 mic pre so I only get the monitor in the left ear. Therefore... I need a "real" way to monitor instead of this make-shift stuff... any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

WATYF
 
In n-Track you do absolutely nothing. Turn off live input processing and even disable live input processing on all the channels if you want. All you have to do in n-Track is hit record and you'll experience no latency, regardless of any buffer settings (because when you record with a card like the Delta, inputs are routed to outputs when recording, therefore you hear what you're putting in *before* it's processed, thereby avoiding latency, but making it somewhat more difficult to find sounds because the recorded sound will be slightly different from what you put in because no soundcard is perfect....this is what people are talking about when they talk about how a soundcard sounds).

The Delta monitor mixer is actually your best friend when it comes to monitoring, and it solves your single channel dilema. If you'll notice, underneath each input channel is a little pan slider that will allow you to pan an incoming signal to taste. The nice thing about this slider is that it doesn't seem to have any impact on how you record in n-Track.

In other words, let's say you're running a vocal take in on channel #1. Bring up the delta control panel scroll the VU meters over until you can see "H/W in 1/2" (I don't know which Delta you have, but with the larger ones you have to scroll to see all the meters). The Delta Control panel groups inputs in stereo pairs, so you'll be interested in the left side of 1/2, and directly under its meter you'll see a little slider that by default will be all the way left. Slide that little bugger over until it's in the middle. Now you'll be monitoring whatever is coming in on channel 1 through both speakers!

Then in n-Track, use the recording VU meter to record the left side of the first input pair to a new track, and then disable all the other inputs. You'll still be just recording a mono source via channel one to a single new mono track, but you'll be monitoring the input in stereo. Magic!

Slackmaster 2000
 
So what you're saying is,... n-Track doesn't have any kind of "monitoring" (other than the "Live" button), so I should just stick to the Delta Monitor Mixer...

The thing was,... my bro has been messing with protools.. and that app basically forces you to use latency. Whenever you record, it lets you hear the input in "real time"... so I thought maybe there was something in n-Track like that... (other than the Live button :p)

so anywhoo.. problem averted.. I'll just go back to using the Delta mixer like I have been all along... oh yeah.. and thanks for pointing oat the pan sliders... :) I never noticed those before...

lol.. man,.. I am one pathetic newbie... :D

WATYF
 
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