DBX 376: Better to use with S/PDIF?

[Joe-H]

I'm a total noob when it comes to this recording hobby, so please take it easy. I had some money to burn and bought myself some nice gears that I don't even know how to use just yet.

Here's my signal chain. An Audiophile 24/96 connected to a Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro, the Mackie mixer is then connected to a Lexicon MPX1 for effect purposes. I read that the preamps build in the Mackie mixer is pretty good, but I also own a dbx 376 preamp. What I'm wondering is would it be better if I hook the dbx unit straight to the Audiophile via the S/PDIF o/i? Or would running the dbx through the mixer better? I'm mostly recording vocals, and occasionally an acoustic guitar. I use a Rode NTK as my vocal mic.

 

[Solafide]

I'd use the digital outs of the dbx. That is probably the best feature on the 376. Just make sure you set up your audiophile to run on the 376's word clock, and everything should work fine.


Have fun!

 

[Joe-H]

Solafide, thanks. Then can I also run another S/PDIF cable from the Output of the Audiophile into the Input of the dbx unit to use its compression feature? I know I can apply compression during tracking, but I would rather apply it after tracking is done. Or should I just use plugins compression instead? I have the Wave Gold Bundle plugins.

 

[Richard Monroe]

Use the Lexicon as an insert Send and receive from/to the DBX and send S/PDIF straight to the sound card. The Mackie does nothing for your signal chain except add noise. Trying to use the compressor in the DBX as a send and receive from your sound card may prove problematic. Generally one unit is the master and the other the slave, and setting them up as a loop can create the digital equivalent of feedback. I don't have enough digital routing knowledge or enough knowledge regarding your sound card to know how to set it up.-Richie

 

[Joe-H]

Richard, sorry but can you explain it a little further (I'm a total noob)? Okay, this is what I CAN do so far:

I can track dry and save the dry track in my computer. With my current setting, I accomplish this by hooking up my mic into the dbx preamp and have the dbx send the signal straight to the Audiophile soundcard via the S/PDIF o/i. I record the signal send in by the dbx with CoolEdit Pro.

This is what I WANT to do:

I want to add in effects (reverb/delay) using the MPX1. I don't like any of the plugins for effect. How would I accomplish this? The MPX1 is a multi effect unit so I would really like to add both reverb and delay at the same time. Would I need to use the Mackie mixer for this purpose?

...I would be a little p/o if I end up not needing the Mackie mixer at all. I could have really used the $400 I spend on it for another effect processor.

EDIT: I forgot to add that ideally, I would want to hear the effects while I'm singing, but the effects is not recorded. Only the dry is recorded. This is possible, right?

 

[Richard Monroe]

That should be doable. Problem is, I'm not familiar enough with the Lexicon unit or the soundcard. I know how I would do it with my gear. Let's try this- Send the dry signal to the sound card by S/PDIF and an analog signal to the Lexicon, and then to the Mackie (we're basically using the mixer for a headphone distribution amp). The DBX will put out the digital and analog signal simultaneously. Plug your headphones into the Mackie. You'll hear the fx, but it never goes to the sound card. Now send S/PDIF out to the Lexicon and then back to the Soundcard by S/PDIF, adding whatever FX you want. That should work. All recorded signal remains in the digital domain. It does, of course, make the Mackie one of the most expensive headphone amps around, but it should work.
The simpler way is to get a send and receive cable (1/4" TRS to 2 1/4" TS), and plug it into the insert on the DBX. The 2 TS plugs go to the in and out on the Lexicon, and just track wet. Check the routing options on the Lexicon. There may be a simpler way to do it. Good Luck-Richie

 

[Bobalou]

the 376 has a less hotter signal in spdif mode than when its in analog mode, so dont let that fact confuse you. to the ear it appears it sounds better in analog due to its hotter level (it very well might???)

the type IV conversion system also has a very soft limiter (thats not controllable) I wouldnt officially call it a limiter, but for your sake I will. this feature or lack there of, you'll notice when your compressor is off, still dampens your signal before overload. it actually can be helpful due to the crappy compressor section that squashes well before it soft limits. especially on vocals.

also, make sure you dont push the "Drive" (tube gain) past or at 12 o'clock, its a terrible sounding tube overdrive problem that helps nothing. (even dbx has said that was a design flaw so they reccomend 12 and under)

I hate the 376 on vocals. so dont push the drive, or the compressor and refrain from the EQ. the units sounded best on accoustic guitar due to the tube, eq, and bad comp, also on snare and kick...I would track most of your instruments through the mackie board due to the mid range mushy haze that effects your overall mix when using the dbx on everything.

your mileage may vary, but maybe some helpful tips...or maybe not!

good luck

 

[Richard Monroe]

I certainly agree with Bobalou about the foolish tewb drive. I use a 386 occasionally, and I never use it past 9:00.

 

[Joe-H]

That should be doable. Problem is, I'm not familiar enough with the Lexicon unit or the soundcard.

The Audiophile soundcard has one RCA L/R input and L/R output. It also has S/PDIF input and output. The Lexicon has one XRL in and out, one 1/4" in and out, and one S/PDIF in and out.

Send the dry signal to the sound card by S/PDIF and an analog signal to the Lexicon, and then to the Mackie (we're basically using the mixer for a headphone distribution amp). The DBX will put out the digital and analog signal simultaneously.

So this is how it's done: Mic to dbx, dbx send digital signal to Audiophile soundcard, dbx also send analog signal to Lexicon, Lexicon then add fx to signal and send it to mixer for monitoring. Do I get this right so far?

Plug your headphones into the Mackie. You'll hear the fx, but it never goes to the sound card.

Then would this mean I just hear the wet signal coming out of the Lexicon or a mixture of both wet and dry, depend on how I set the Lexicon? Even so, how would I listen to the music playing on the computer while at the same time listen to what's being recorded? Say that I already have a guitar track on the computer. Now I want to playback that guitar track and record a vocal track. I would want to listen to the guitar track playing while I record the vocal. Does this mean I just send an analog signal from the soundcard to the mixer then? This would mean I can listen to the vocal (being recorded dry) with fx along with the playback guitar track in my computer, right? What about latency problems then?

Now send S/PDIF out to the Lexicon and then back to the Soundcard by S/PDIF, adding whatever FX you want.

I'm lost. So I playback the recorded dry track on the computer, send it to the Lexicon via S/PDIF to add fx, and the Lexicon then send back the added fx signal to the Audiophile via S/PDIF? It makes sense for me, but the problem is that the Audiophile soundcard has only one S/PDIF input. This is already taken by the dbx.

It does, of course, make the Mackie one of the most expensive headphone amps around, but it should work.

Tell me about it. I'm starting to think that my friend gave me some bad advice on what gears to get. With how I want to record (basically just one track at a time), I didn't think I NEEDED to get BOTH the dbx and the Mackie. I think either one would have been perfectly fine for my need. This kind of pisses me off a little...

The simpler way is to get a send and receive cable (1/4" TRS to 2 1/4" TS), and plug it into the insert on the DBX. The 2 TS plugs go to the in and out on the Lexicon, and just track wet. Check the routing options on the Lexicon. There may be a simpler way to do it. Good Luck-Richie

I do intend to do it that way. It is just that I don't know how to get it done. That's why I'm here. Anyway, I do have all the necessary cables ready to hook up everything. Two Monster S/PDIF cables, two dual-head 1/4" to RCA Monster cables, and two dual-head 1/4" to 1/4" Monster cables. I just need someone to show me the way and I'm on my way to making happy music.

 

[Joe-H]

I hate the 376 on vocals. so dont push the drive, or the compressor and refrain from the EQ. the units sounded best on accoustic guitar due to the tube, eq, and bad comp, also on snare and kick...I would track most of your instruments through the mackie board due to the mid range mushy haze that effects your overall mix when using the dbx on everything.

Wow. Is the dbx really not even as good as the preamps on the Mackie for tracking vocal? That would absolutely be a terrible buy for me then because tracking vocal is what I mostly do. If this is true, I'm really p/o at my friend. The guy owns really expensive gears, and I guess he thought I have close to the same standards as he does.

I bought the dbx for $500 only 6 weeks ago and have hardly used it. Most of the listed price on Ebay for the dbx is around $400 something. Hmmm...... I would be cool to get $400 for it.

 

[Richard Monroe]

You've got it. You have to record dry first, then re-patch, so you can send your recorded dry track back to the Lexicon and then back to the soundcard to record it on another track wet. And even with its issues, I believe the DBX is a better preamp than a mackie board. The signal is always a mixture of wet and dry, depending on hoe the mix is set on the FX unit. If everything stays in the digital domain, you probably won't have major latency issues.-Richie

 

[Joe-H]

You've got it. You have to record dry first, then re-patch, so you can send your recorded dry track back to the Lexicon and then back to the soundcard to record it on another track wet.

I do? What do you mean by "re-patch"? My soundcard has only one S/PDIF Input and one S/PDIF Output. The one S/PDIF Input on my soundcard is taken by the dbx unit, so how would I receive the signal from the Lexicon? Do you mean I should unplug the S/PDIF from the dbx and have it connected to the Lexicon whenever I want to mix? Then unplug the Lexicon and plug it to the dbx whenever I want to record? This would be really inconvenient for me. There has got to be a better way, right?

And even with its issues, I believe the DBX is a better preamp than a mackie board.

I would like to think so. The dbx was $500 just for ONE channel of preamp. The Mackie mixer was $400 with four preamps and of course the mixer. Of course, I have never plug my NTK into the Mackie preamps so I don't really know. I intend to use dynamic mics with the Mackie preamps. The Mackie preamps are certainly a nice improvement over the M-Audio Buddy that I used to use a lot.

I don't know if having the dbx unit is worth it if it doesn't prove (to me)dramatically to be better than the Mackie preamps. I'm going to have to do a comparison before I decide to sell the dbx unit or not. I could really use the money to buy another effect unit.

 

[Bobalou]

$500...Yikes! I had been trying to sell mine locally for $350 and couldnt get any takers. ebay was running at about $250-300. at the time!

Here's your problem IMO. the NTK tube mic is a very nice sounding mic for male vocals. it really adds all the tube character needed for a vibey vocal track. problem is, when you run that mic through a budget tube pre (like the dbx/ARTs/etc) you get more on the mud side. a fantastic combo for the NTK and voice is more of a clean pre like the 2 channel RNP ($475), the 1 channel Grace 101 ($500) or even something like the $150.00 2 channel DMP-3, or even the 1 channel Rane MS-1b ($150).

I would almost bet that the NTK would sound better through the mackie (though the mackie is known for its upper mid shriek!) as far as presence is concerned....I have an NTK it it sounds much better through the clean pre's than the tubes. I'm embarrased to say that along with the units I mentioned above (minus the grace) I bought into the tube pre craze when I first got started recording. (DBX 376, ART Pro MPA) i still have them, ones in the closet, the dbx is used on an 8" speaker mic for the front of my kick drum.

for the money without a doubt the RNP (2 channels) for $475 is a great pre for a tube mic and for $150 you can get its partner the RNC (real nice compressor) and that is probably the best vocal chain with a tube mic for just a smidge above what you paid for the dbx...the RNC has a feature called "super Nice mode" which so lightly compresses, that you cant even hear it yet it tames the voice very well. (transparent)

If you use the NTK with the dbx as I said, dont push the tube drive especially with a tube mic. I've ran an AT 4033 and a Neuman TLM 103 through the dbx with the drive down, no eq, and compression almost off, I tried to control my peaks during my performance and got decent results out of it. (I have a big voice so I need a pre with mucho headroom) if you dont sing so hard you'll probably be fine.

I would agree that the mackie pre's arn't "better" than the dbx just different, which is a good thing when recording.

good luck

 

[Joe-H]

I have good news! At least it is good news for me. No I did not save on my insurance, but my friend agreed to trade his new Kurzweil Rumour for my dbx 376. That was cool of him. Now I just need someone to show me how to hook all this up.

So I hook the NTK to one of the preamps on the Mackie... Can anyone kindly show me how to hook up everything together so that I can do: Play a track on the computer while singing (with fx added to the singing for listenning only) along to that track and have the computer record the dry vocal. Then route the dry vocal to the MPX1 to add fx, and then have the computer record that track (the now wet track)?