DAT vs CDR

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Hello everyone. My name is Jim and I'm new to the list. I run Big Boot Studios in Imperial, PA. The unhappy icon next to the posted message represents how I felt this morning when I learned that my DAT machine no longer felt like gracing me with its services. It sure likes to eat tapes though. Anyway, I've asked this question to many people and no one has ever given me a straight answer. All I'm ever told is how much I NEED to keep the DAT machine. I am able to mix down and save seperate tracks to CDRs and CDRWs which is obviously less expensive anyway. I almost never do anything above 44.100khz and I never notice any sound quality difference between my DAT mixes and the DAT copies to CDR. Why do I need to have a DAT machine? Wouldn't getting rid of it simply eliminate the middle man? If anyone can help me, I'd greatly appreciate it. My e-mail address is BGBoot@aol.com. Thanks. Jim
 
The days of the dat machine are almost over {and i've got one too}Mastering houses are useing CDRs now for there portable medium...So if it were now ,I wouldn't invest in one .Your clients probobly like to get a playable medium also .Thats just my opinion though .
 
If you do mastering work, get another DAT machine. People will still mix down to DAT, so you'd be losing some business from those who mixed thier own music and just need a DAT mastered.
Otherwise, make a toaster out of the damned thing.
 
But if you can save your master recording on another medium, like my Zip 250 disk, why would you need a DAT. Wouldnt you always have a master to remix later? Then the CDR would be the way to go.
 
I don't know if you can record live bands in your studio but in my opinion, recording live to DAT is much more reliable
then to HD. My computer has caused me several problems making me restart the session several times ( as my clients looked on pissed.

It's also much better when you have to record a live concert where you have to bring your eqipment to the hall.
 
you know , over and over again i hear the debate about how a DAT is good because you can take it with you and use it on location.. why couldnt you do that with a pc ? its just the tower and the monitor.. and most soundcards are rack mountable , and most people bring a rack with them to record live.. keep in mind im an ignorant person who has never used a DAT before.. :)

- eddie -
 
Eddie,

When you record onto a hard disk you are to a certain degree taking a chance that your computer won't
Cough, sputter, overload buffer, problems, Blue screen crash, reboot itself due to a fluctuation in the electricity, Tell you "most clean up disk to continue" Etc....

Can you see yourself in a real live situation in the middle of a gig trying to reboot and solve the problems ( if you can ) while all this time the band is playing on
(playing the best take ever).

With a Dat you pop it in and let it run and when it's finished you pop in a new one.
Not to mention that there are no HD crashes after the gig or no virtual ( shit where did I put those files ) tracks etc..

Dat stands for - Plain no bullshit quality easy relieble put in pocket Yes there is a god tape.

The only big advantage I can see using a computer is that you can multi track a live gig while with a Dat you can't




[This message has been edited by Shailat (edited 04-06-2000).]
 
maybe, i'm out of my league here but has anyone ever heard of ORB removable drives? i guess some people use them for storing mixes and masters on. each disk holds 2.2 gigabytes of info and the disks are faster than most eide drives. i have one, but i use mine for storing my audio files. i can run 32 tracks without a glitch on one of the little buggers. i read on www.castlewood.com
that some producers and engineers are starting to use them instead of DAT tapes. just thought u might like to know.
 
In my lil business,i keep all of the best worlds. I use Dat, Cdr, pc and my portable Daw! I work for the customer and whatever they request I fulfill. i have my own opinions on what medium they should use and what would be cost effective, but in the end
it is wise to keep at least 1 of each...........cause you never know..
last but not least,i also own a sony 4trak
reel. i have had some request good ole' fashioned tape! just my 1 1/2 cents worth!
 
The topic of DAT machines cannibalizing DAT tapes seems to be appearing more frequently. My DA-30 has been reliable for some seven years. However, in the past year it has just begun the nasty, random tape munching habit. I'm so afraid of my DAT now that I back-up every take immediately to CD.

I wonder if the cannibalization is a symtom of age with DAT machines?

Is there a simple maintenance procedure that can prevent this?
 
That's why I love my Monkey Method TASCAM CDRW 5000. The backup is created as the session is captured. I've treated her pretty rough and she's yet to drop a friggin' byte!
Sure I got a scare when she wouldn't recognize a disc she burnt the day before but that was just a temporary condition. Still have yet to really lose my first byte. And the replacement of CDR with CDRW discs is completely transparent.
 
To me, nothing beats having a CDR, and I'm not talking in a PC (which is fine for mastering, but that's another issue). Even still, in a PC, CDRs kill DATs. And this is coming from a guy who's loved DATs (the idea of them then, before I used them) even before pros embraced them way back when. Quality digital recording. And that's what a CDR does now. I can take my CD recorder any where. No boot up or anything. No eating of tapes, no nothing. It writes directly to the disc. If I need more space, I just pop in another disc. DATs record longer times, but you can easily place a new disc in between sets. And it's infinitely cheaper. A 80 minute DAT is, what, 6 or 7 bucks? A consumer CDR is a buck fifty (what I pay), three dollars tops.
I still want a DAT machine, just for those rare clients who need one. But EVERYONE wants a CD of their own music, without any doubt. DATs are great, but they lose this battle.
 
Have you considered a stand alone cdr or cdrw? This is the next stage of portable recording and they have 80% less moving parts than a dat, which by the way can cause tape wear and distortion. Never mind the fact that dat has definite color! It is hard to move on to new formats but there is some great benafits behind them too.
Phathead
 
Ummmmmm....PHATHEAD, please elborate on what you mean by "Never mind the fact that dat has definite color!"

Also, please elaborate on "which by the way can cause tape wear and distortion". More on the distortion part.

I would also like to add that CDR is one of the most delicate formats there is for recording to. A tiny scratch on the bottom OR top of the CDR will render it useless at a CD duplication house, and on many players. As a media for mixing to, it also has the disadvantage of not being rewritable. Sure, you all are gonna say get a CD-RW disk, but, they have to be totally erased before you can reuse them. Also, they are just as expensive as a DAT tape and offer less record time per $. Also, my experience has been that CD-RW's are even MORE delicate then CDR's. Also, when I am mixing, and maybe have a false start, or bad fader move, etc....on DAT, I can rewind and start over and not waste tape with a bad mix. With CDR this is not possible, and with CD-RW you would have to erase ALL the material before you can reuse it fresh. Not good if you already got a bunch of keeper mixes on it.

Now, I don't know about you guys, but for every bad DAT tape I have used, I have had like 4 CDR's not turn out. Hell, the burn can be corrupted just by banging your foot on the floor enough to shake the lazer during a burn (DAT's are immune to this kind of thing). DAT tapes also provides AT LEAST 1000 records, and about double that on playbacks before noticable dropouts occure. If you keeps the heads clean, they will not hurt the tape for a long time to come.

Some of us LIKE to record at 48KHz sampling rate, especially if we are sending the DAT out to have it mastered. The mastering house will prefer to have THE HIGHEST QUALITY RECORDING POSSIBLE for them to work with. If you cannot hear the qualative difference between 44.1 and 48k sampling rates, your monitoring system is flawed in a way that you should doubt much of what you are hearing while recording and mixing. I am not saying that the difference is the same as between 16 and 24 bits, but it is quite noticable none the less.

So BigFootStudio, you are offering your services to the public I presume. Don't kid yourself by not pursuing the most reliable, flexible, industry standard gear that you can afford. Trust me, your business will suffer if you don't. DAT is still widely used because it is durable compared to CDR, offers better fidelity at it's best (48k sampling rate, important if your customer is going to master the recordings at a real mastering house) and in the end doesn't waste media product because you can record over it again and again. Keep the machine in good repair and clean, it will serve you well.

Please though PHATHEAD, I am interested in your opinions about those two comments. I am hoping you mean something different then what they sound like to me.

Ed

Oh by the way, I am using neither CDR or DAT recorders anymore for recording. For $450, my Lynx One audio card provides very killer sounding 24 bit converters that neither DAT or CDR burner provide. Even if I record at 16 bit to the hard drive, it is still a 24 bit converter and the file is just saved at 16 bit. A far superior sound. Also, it only takes a few minutes to author a proper CD with sofware, and for client reference, I burn at 4X speed which works fine. I have never had any bad pucks to date with audio CD's.

If you think about it, a internal CDR burner, with a high end soundcard costs about he same as a stand alone and offers many other goodies and potential uses then a stand alone recorder does. I only use my CDR burner and DAT player now for when clients bring in stuff on one of these two formats and want it mastered. I will never get rid of them, but I haven't mixed to either of them since getting this audio card.

[This message has been edited by sonusman (edited 05-01-2000).]
 
sonusman,
I don't know what CDRWs you're talking about but it doesn't take but a second to erase a track (yes, you can erase the last track) if you mess up. Again, CDRWs erase: last track or all tracks. So if you want to get rid of the last three tracks, you can do that. The one track in the middle? No one would even do that on a DAT for fear of screwing up another track. Cost? A three pack of CDRWs for $12.99 isn't bad at all, and is much cheaper compared to DAT at just over 4 bucks for 74 min.
And 48khz? It is highly preferable to send your masters out at 44.1khz. Why, because the mastering house will have to spend the time to "dither" you high sample rate, which depending on the mastering plant (not all of us can afford Roger Nichols-class engineers), you might end up with a lesser quality than 44.1. You can record at 48 or even higher on your multitrack, but mix to 44.1 always, at least for the copy that goes out. Don't understand, ask Roger Nichols at www.musicplayersnetwork.com. Again, CDRs are getting to the point where they will replace DATs in project studios easily (as well they should). Peace
 
Maybe I don't have the lingo down because I've never owned a DAT machine, but can't you do eight tracks and chain them together for many more? Is that an ADAT? I thought the two track units were just a cheaper/smaller version with a different code format.
But I'm convinced that the external CDRW is far more reliable than trusting your live recording to a PC. PC's are great when you're editing and burning the final CD because if the system crashes it's no big deal.
But the biggest advantage of the external CDRW is the portability and ease of set-up.
Don't you have to format digital tapes?
And I pay $2 for CDRWs and $1 for CDRs.
With less than a box of CDRWs I can get more recording time than I can realistically use and only transfer what I want to PC for archiving on CDR. Then wipe the CDRWs and you're ready to use them again. Funny you mention the 1000 recordings on DAT tape. That's just what they claim for the number or record/erase cycles on a CDRW.
I was skeptical of the stability against physical vibration of the CDRW machine, but
I saw mine dancing up and down like a Mexican Jumping Bean during a perfect recording.
Damn musicians with their cowboy boots a stompin' and a hollerin' like they're at a square dance.
Well- perfect in that there were no dropouts.
And once it was digitally transferred it was as if I'd recorded it directly to my Gina.
But I never had to shlep a monitor and my PC/kybd/mouse. Big Plus.
 
Hey sonusman, the truth is tape can stretch, YES? and in your expireince I'm sure you have seen it yourself, whether it be dat or any other tape device, obviously it takes a fair amount of use ,but it does happen. Secondly, if dat does not add color, why are there programs to remove it? you are right with the fact that CDs can be volitile, but they last a long time, if you treat them like gold, just like the recording that you put on them. Tape after just three years can start to become gummy, depending no the enviorment they are in. Iam also not saying cdr's are better but is is a good cost efficent way to do the job .You want a great way ?use the alesis masterlink and record on to hard disk or cdr at 24/96k both formats and is very stable, at a little over the cost of a new dat this is the way to go.

Phathead


[This message has been edited by PHATHEAD (edited 05-03-2000).]
 
Yes, tapes can stretch. And there is also a crystal in the digital player that references the stipped time code on the tape and adjusts the motors for the tape while the tape is passing the head to keeps a sample accurate playback. Also, all digital gear uses buffering during recording and playback to assure that things stay in order. Trust me, the manufactures of DAT player/recorders HAD to take into account tape stretching in their designs. The tolorence is somewhat stiff, but it has not been my experience that DAT tapes exceed it very often. You need to play the DAT EXCESSIVELY before this happens. Storage is an issue of course, but you only need to follow a few simple guidelines. I have DAT tapes that are over 10 years old that where the masters for cassette duplications that play back perfectly. Age on digital tape is almost no issue at all if the tapes are stored in a dry environment.

As far as color, I still don't know what you mean. A/D converters add color, D/A converters add color, cable adds color, but the tape is just storing 1's and 0's, and using the same A/D/A converters will playback sounding exactly the same on DAT, CDR, Hard Disk, whatever.

Dithering has nothing to do with sample rate conversions. I am not sure what these mastering guys are doing, but, Bob Ludwig (the biggest name is mastering), Bob Katz (seems to be highly regarded by Bob Ludwig. :)), and Bob Clearwater (just realized, all Bob's. Maybe your name needs to be Bob to be good at engineering... :D)all suggested the highest sampling rate and word bit length possible for stuff submitted for mastering. The local mastering guy I still use sometimes ask's for the highest sampling rate possible too. He likes playing the DAT back through Apogee 24 bit converters and applying analog EQ and compression and resampling the output of these devices into the computer using 24 bit converters. He will record to hard drive at 48KHz if further processing is required on the computer (such as RMS leveling) and let the software sample rate converters do their magic. If no other processing is needed, he will just go into the computer at 44.1 from the analog processing. But the point is that 48KHz gives the mastering engineer a better product to play back through killer converters. Also, if the mastering is going to be done in the digital realm, the perceived accuracy of the processing is much better at 48KHz then at 44.1. Once again, sample rate conversion is needed, but a good algorythm for doing this will not impart any bad artifacts to the sound. So once again, the mastering house can do a better job with higher sampling rates.

Now if you are just using the hack em' up mastering dudes at the CD manufacturing plant, well, most of them are right out of school and don't know squat about mastering. Trusting your product to them is like have a Nurse perform brain surgery. Sure, she may know what tools are needed, and may even be able to open you up and find the brain, but won't have any idea how to perform the surgery. So, you cannot expect that these guys are going to follow well established techniques most mastering engineers know when working with your mixes.

As far as placing your trust in CDR's or CDRW, that is your business. I have lost more media that way, even with excellent handling then with DAT. I can DROP a DAT tape and not worry about a scratch... :D I have had a CDR scratch from putting it in the tray! I have pulled out CDR's that have scratch's from the CD player not stopping them fully before setting them back in the tray. The mix is wasted.

I just will not trust such a delicate media for finale mixes. If you do, well, cool. For me, it is DAT or Hard Drive. I will only use CDR as a way to submit the mastered CD to the manufacturing plant.

Peace.

Ed
 
That is correct mr. grover You can erase one track on cdrw, but it depends on the model of cdr-recorder. I use a Fostex CR-300 Professional with all the trimmings. It has 4 erase modes. Most of the older machines don't have that option. I also use a sony DAT Pcm-r300(ancient now) but I can see how technology makes things easier. The dat collects dust now that I have a cdr recorder. As far as mixdowns(whew) some times all you need is one take and its burned already. Thank you here's your single.(For the clients who get on your nerves or want a whole cd for $50.(hehehe)
 
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