FALKEN
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can you daisy chain a furman power conditioner? for say a 20 space rack?
MadAudio
Damned if I do
I seem to remember reading that it's bad to plug one surge-protected strip into another one, but I don't remember why.
FALKEN
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you people talk all day about 2,000 dollar preamps and you dont know if you can plug one power conditioner into another???
J
JasonB93117
New member
It has only been a day... have a little patience.
H
heroics321
New member
Recording knowledge and gear lust do not always equal electronics know-how. Just remember, Google is your friend...
Q: Can I plug one surge protector into another to expand the number of outlets at my entertainment center?
A: Possibly, though since you can get power protection components with up to 12 AC outlets, "daisy chaining" power protection units together should not be necessary. We recommend selecting a model that will accommodate all of your components in any given location. When daisy chaining, it is possible to add too great of a current demand on the first power protection component in line, which could cause it to go into "protect" mode if the current draw exceeds what it is designed to carry. - Crutchfield
I'd say it's safe with maybe two units, but I'd feel safer without daisy chaining. Provided your wiring is decent, your result will quite possibly be better utilizing different outlets. It seems kinda oxymoronic to be worried about the way you're powering your equipment, using the Furmans, if you do in fact try something like the d-chain. In any case, I always like to have plenty of healthy three-prong extension cords and an outlet tester around, and avoid running the extention cords over any audio cables.
Q: Can I plug one surge protector into another to expand the number of outlets at my entertainment center?
A: Possibly, though since you can get power protection components with up to 12 AC outlets, "daisy chaining" power protection units together should not be necessary. We recommend selecting a model that will accommodate all of your components in any given location. When daisy chaining, it is possible to add too great of a current demand on the first power protection component in line, which could cause it to go into "protect" mode if the current draw exceeds what it is designed to carry. - Crutchfield
I'd say it's safe with maybe two units, but I'd feel safer without daisy chaining. Provided your wiring is decent, your result will quite possibly be better utilizing different outlets. It seems kinda oxymoronic to be worried about the way you're powering your equipment, using the Furmans, if you do in fact try something like the d-chain. In any case, I always like to have plenty of healthy three-prong extension cords and an outlet tester around, and avoid running the extention cords over any audio cables.
FALKEN
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very true.
although who wants to use 2 outlets for one rack? the point of the furman is to keep the equipment from humming and getting fried. and to keep it running consistently. I guess my question is does daisy chaining them expose you to these issues. obviously it if negates the idea of using a furman than you dont do it! very funny! but I am going to buy a 20 space rack, which will house about 9-10 pieces of gear that use cables not counting the furman(s), and a few patch bays and some other stuff that dont use power but I already have a RP-8. and my mixer and monitors are going through my computer's UPS.
although who wants to use 2 outlets for one rack? the point of the furman is to keep the equipment from humming and getting fried. and to keep it running consistently. I guess my question is does daisy chaining them expose you to these issues. obviously it if negates the idea of using a furman than you dont do it! very funny! but I am going to buy a 20 space rack, which will house about 9-10 pieces of gear that use cables not counting the furman(s), and a few patch bays and some other stuff that dont use power but I already have a RP-8. and my mixer and monitors are going through my computer's UPS.
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NeoMagick
New member
20 RU's worth of gear, and you're worried about two outlets?
if you're using a 20 space rack, and you've got 10 or 15 pieces of gear in there, hell yeah i'd use 2 outlets. At LEAST! Some higher end conditioners take power from two outlets, preferably on different circuits, to completely regulate the voltage load. I'd use two of those in a single rack with enough gear, if i needed to.
I'm using a Furman PL8 Series II conditioner. I trust it, but i'm not gonna try and overpower it... It's the same concept as running two surge surpressors (johnny bars) off of each other. If they're rated to a certain breaking point, then it's not just the draw off the first one that will blow it, its the draw off the combination of the first AND the second one that will blow number one. Ie -
Conditioner 1 - 15amp Rating
(9 amps of gear, and a line to -
Conditioner 2 - 15amp Rating
(6 amps of gear)
Conditioner 2 is only drawing 6 amps. But it's 6 amps are coming from something which already has 9 amps pulling on it. That will blow the first conditioner. If you do start running it all on one conditioner, you'll be at a much higher risk for a breaker blow at any point in time, but probably when you least want it (and anything may set it off, from powering something else up, to starting a tape deck motor).
Also, there's higher heat generation which comes from daisychaining (generally at the initial power source - i.e. the outlet that conditioner 1 is plugged into), and the possibility of it sparking off and starting a fire is greatly increased.
I wouldn't risk it. 20 u's worth of gear, i'd use 2 conditioners, unconditionally (no pun intended).
if you're using a 20 space rack, and you've got 10 or 15 pieces of gear in there, hell yeah i'd use 2 outlets. At LEAST! Some higher end conditioners take power from two outlets, preferably on different circuits, to completely regulate the voltage load. I'd use two of those in a single rack with enough gear, if i needed to.
I'm using a Furman PL8 Series II conditioner. I trust it, but i'm not gonna try and overpower it... It's the same concept as running two surge surpressors (johnny bars) off of each other. If they're rated to a certain breaking point, then it's not just the draw off the first one that will blow it, its the draw off the combination of the first AND the second one that will blow number one. Ie -
Conditioner 1 - 15amp Rating
(9 amps of gear, and a line to -
Conditioner 2 - 15amp Rating
(6 amps of gear)
Conditioner 2 is only drawing 6 amps. But it's 6 amps are coming from something which already has 9 amps pulling on it. That will blow the first conditioner. If you do start running it all on one conditioner, you'll be at a much higher risk for a breaker blow at any point in time, but probably when you least want it (and anything may set it off, from powering something else up, to starting a tape deck motor).
Also, there's higher heat generation which comes from daisychaining (generally at the initial power source - i.e. the outlet that conditioner 1 is plugged into), and the possibility of it sparking off and starting a fire is greatly increased.
I wouldn't risk it. 20 u's worth of gear, i'd use 2 conditioners, unconditionally (no pun intended).
mshilarious
Banned
What are you gonna fill the rack with? 20u of computers and power amps draws a lot of current; 20u of preamps and compressors, not so much. You need to add up the power draw of all your units and add some cushion.
However, it's not impossible to run 20u with one circuit. I have 15u (not including the 2u regulator) that only draws about 3 amps.
If you need 12-15 amps, I'd run a 20 amp circuit and get a 20 amp conditioner, rather than run two circuits. More than that, you need two circuits. Don't confuse outlets with circuits; all the outlets in a single room are likely on the same circuit, in that case different outlets buys you nothing.
If you can get by with a single circuit, then instead of two conditioners, get one conditioner and one plane-jane power strip to get all the outlets you need.
However, it's not impossible to run 20u with one circuit. I have 15u (not including the 2u regulator) that only draws about 3 amps.
If you need 12-15 amps, I'd run a 20 amp circuit and get a 20 amp conditioner, rather than run two circuits. More than that, you need two circuits. Don't confuse outlets with circuits; all the outlets in a single room are likely on the same circuit, in that case different outlets buys you nothing.
If you can get by with a single circuit, then instead of two conditioners, get one conditioner and one plane-jane power strip to get all the outlets you need.
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NeoMagick
New member
mshilarious said:
i agree, it's a very good idea to figure out how many circuits are in the room (most likely one), and what it's breaking point is. If it's a 20a circuit, and you're also running desk lamps, computers, monitors, amplifiers, /and/ all this gear, you ought to be calculating for 20 amps total, not just whats in the rack. In that case, you can either replace the breaker in the panel (but that may also need a change of wiring, depending on how old your house is), or run an extension cord from another circuit.
However, i differ on opinion in one scenario. If you're fortunate enough to have a 35/40+ amp circuit in the room, or at least a circuit wide enough to give you some headroom with all your gear running, I'd still go with 2 power conditioners in the 20u rack, rather than daisy chain them, or run a johnny bar.
The conditioners also clean the power running to the gear, and a johnny bar (esp. a cheap one) in the line would dirty it up again. Not by much, and it's a little bit of semantics, I know, but in the long run, clean(er) power can arguably save power supplies and transformers from crapping out. Just as you want as few hops as possible in the signal path going from mic to deck, the same applies to the power. And if I'm gonna invest in $5k or howevermuch worth of gear (or enough to fill 20u anyway) another $150 or so in a power conditioner to get /all/ of it the cleanest power I can, is beyond a worthwhile investment in my mind.
H
heroics321
New member
you'd be surprised at the differences between a lower-priced furman conditioner and some of the power strips out there, a lot of time it's not much. there's a nice thread in here somewhere discussing the differences, namely large transformers that truly condition the power... ac filtering vs. actual conditioning. the $100-$200 range is most likely not going to be any more effective at saving a power supply than a computer surge protector that runs for $30-$50... i could be wrong, but thats the impression that i get. nothing wrong with buying the furman, but i wouldn't expect it to save your life under drastic power conditions (pun not intended).
most of the options suggested aren't going to blow breakers or make outlets hot, but not all electricians or their work are created equally. i'm fortunate enough to have two circuits to choose from with the odd wiring in the area of my house that i record (from the attempted finishing of a bonus room by the previous owner), so my situation is most likely very different than yours. mshilarious definitely gave you a scheme that could work with room left to breath.
most of the options suggested aren't going to blow breakers or make outlets hot, but not all electricians or their work are created equally. i'm fortunate enough to have two circuits to choose from with the odd wiring in the area of my house that i record (from the attempted finishing of a bonus room by the previous owner), so my situation is most likely very different than yours. mshilarious definitely gave you a scheme that could work with room left to breath.
FALKEN
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first off, I rent
there are 4 outlets in the room. each is a double outlet or whatever - normal outlet. they are grounded as well. Although my mixer does hum sometimes. It might have to do with a dimmer across the house. Anywawyz the landlord re-wired everything himself and Im not sure exactly what he did. every room in the house has a celing-fan light, but the light switch as you enter the room does not control the light. he fixed that. instead of controlling the main light in the room, the lightswitch (in EVERY ROOM) controls one of the outlets. Actually, in my bedroom, it controls half of the outlet behind the bed. So if my alarm clock is plugged into that one, I can accidently just turn it off with the lightswitch. brilliant.
I'm not sure how to tell if each outlet is on a different circuit. I have about zero electrical knowledge. but, the 20 ru worth of gear =
pc interface
tube preamp (2)
compressor (2)
reverb (2)
patch bay
eq (3)
furman
thats not so bad!!!
so I have plugged in:
outlet 1- the rack, and my reel to reel
outlet 2 - pc, mixer, monitors (the half not connected to the lightswitch)
outlet 3 - amplifier if recording guitars.
outlet 4 - unused. behind the couch.
maybe the outlet connected to the lightswitch is on a different circuit?
to run a 2-furman rack I would need to run an extension cord for the reel. this might be the way to go?
there are 4 outlets in the room. each is a double outlet or whatever - normal outlet. they are grounded as well. Although my mixer does hum sometimes. It might have to do with a dimmer across the house. Anywawyz the landlord re-wired everything himself and Im not sure exactly what he did. every room in the house has a celing-fan light, but the light switch as you enter the room does not control the light. he fixed that. instead of controlling the main light in the room, the lightswitch (in EVERY ROOM) controls one of the outlets. Actually, in my bedroom, it controls half of the outlet behind the bed. So if my alarm clock is plugged into that one, I can accidently just turn it off with the lightswitch. brilliant.
I'm not sure how to tell if each outlet is on a different circuit. I have about zero electrical knowledge. but, the 20 ru worth of gear =
pc interface
tube preamp (2)
compressor (2)
reverb (2)
patch bay
eq (3)
furman
thats not so bad!!!
so I have plugged in:
outlet 1- the rack, and my reel to reel
outlet 2 - pc, mixer, monitors (the half not connected to the lightswitch)
outlet 3 - amplifier if recording guitars.
outlet 4 - unused. behind the couch.
maybe the outlet connected to the lightswitch is on a different circuit?
to run a 2-furman rack I would need to run an extension cord for the reel. this might be the way to go?
FALKEN
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NeoMagick said:
How do I do this?
X
xstatic
New member
Wow, lots of misinformation in this thread somehow
1.) Don't count too much on a regular old power conditioner getting rid of your buzzes.
2.) Under drastic conditions a power conditioner can DEFINATELY save your gear. Ever seen what happens to 110volt gear when it is plugged into a circuit running 220? I have. The power conditioner was running a rack full of compression and reverbs at a live show. Long story short...... The power conditioner made a lot of noise, sparks, and smoke when it was powered up. None of the gear however did, and all of it worked for the show. I have a feeling that no regular power strip would have stopped that electricl tsunami.
3.) Many places have more than one circuit per room. In fact, often times it is 1 per wall (in commercial environments at least).
4.) More than likely you will NOT need 2 circuits to only run 20 rack spaces of audio equipment. If they were all power amps yes, but if they were studio power amps, once again you might not. I run my whole control room on two circuits. This includes a Large Format Console with 10 rack spaces of power supplies alone, and two power amps (one of which drives 400 watts per side if necessary, and the other is a Crown DC300 which probably is not too efficient), and my whole computer set-up. In 4 years in this buliding I have NEVER tripped a circuit.
1.) Don't count too much on a regular old power conditioner getting rid of your buzzes.
2.) Under drastic conditions a power conditioner can DEFINATELY save your gear. Ever seen what happens to 110volt gear when it is plugged into a circuit running 220? I have. The power conditioner was running a rack full of compression and reverbs at a live show. Long story short...... The power conditioner made a lot of noise, sparks, and smoke when it was powered up. None of the gear however did, and all of it worked for the show. I have a feeling that no regular power strip would have stopped that electricl tsunami.
3.) Many places have more than one circuit per room. In fact, often times it is 1 per wall (in commercial environments at least).
4.) More than likely you will NOT need 2 circuits to only run 20 rack spaces of audio equipment. If they were all power amps yes, but if they were studio power amps, once again you might not. I run my whole control room on two circuits. This includes a Large Format Console with 10 rack spaces of power supplies alone, and two power amps (one of which drives 400 watts per side if necessary, and the other is a Crown DC300 which probably is not too efficient), and my whole computer set-up. In 4 years in this buliding I have NEVER tripped a circuit.
SonicAlbert
Super-Sonic "Herb" Albert
Speaking of misinformation, the first thing to get straight is that the Furman PL8 is not a power conditioner. No actual conditioning of power occurs. This is such a common misconception, and it happens in every single thread I've ever read about power conditioning. The unit you are talking about is a power strip. It has EMI rejection and voltage surge protection, but that's about it, and that's not power conditioning. Just to keep that straight.
I have a few of those Furman units, and I also ahve a bunch of the TrippLite units, the IsoBar-12. It has 10 outlets on the back and two in front. That might be enough for you.
As far as daisy chaining power strips, I see no reason why you can't. I'm not an electrical engineer or anything, so don't consider me an expert and I could be totally wrong. However, I daisy chain power strips in my studio and have never had a problem with it. I have a couple of those six foot long floor strips running along the walls, and my rack strips are connected to those. However, I also have a couple rack strips plugged into the rack strips directly below them. So in other words, I've got the floor strip, a Furman plugged into that, and then a TrippLite plugged into that. All the power is fed from one outlet in the wall (through an Equi-Tech balanced power unit).
As far as taking different parts of your rack from different wall outlets, in general I would avoid that. If you wall outlet is providing 15 amps, you can use up to 15 amps before tripping the breakers. That's *a lot* of gear! The thing is, there's probably other stuff on that circuit as well, so if you've got an AC and a vacuum cleaner and a washing machine *and* your studio, then you might find yourself blowing the breakers/fuses if it's all on at once.
Again, I'm not expert, just speaking from personal experience. If I owned this house I'd have had an electrical guy come in and wire my studio 20 amps seperate from the rest of the house. So if you have any questions and want a real answer, you might want find an electrician and see what they say.
I have a few of those Furman units, and I also ahve a bunch of the TrippLite units, the IsoBar-12. It has 10 outlets on the back and two in front. That might be enough for you.
As far as daisy chaining power strips, I see no reason why you can't. I'm not an electrical engineer or anything, so don't consider me an expert and I could be totally wrong. However, I daisy chain power strips in my studio and have never had a problem with it. I have a couple of those six foot long floor strips running along the walls, and my rack strips are connected to those. However, I also have a couple rack strips plugged into the rack strips directly below them. So in other words, I've got the floor strip, a Furman plugged into that, and then a TrippLite plugged into that. All the power is fed from one outlet in the wall (through an Equi-Tech balanced power unit).
As far as taking different parts of your rack from different wall outlets, in general I would avoid that. If you wall outlet is providing 15 amps, you can use up to 15 amps before tripping the breakers. That's *a lot* of gear! The thing is, there's probably other stuff on that circuit as well, so if you've got an AC and a vacuum cleaner and a washing machine *and* your studio, then you might find yourself blowing the breakers/fuses if it's all on at once.
Again, I'm not expert, just speaking from personal experience. If I owned this house I'd have had an electrical guy come in and wire my studio 20 amps seperate from the rest of the house. So if you have any questions and want a real answer, you might want find an electrician and see what they say.
mshilarious
Banned
NeoMagick said:
It's unlikely that an interior residential outlet circuit is 20 amps unless done for a specific reason (a bathroom, kitchen, or the 20 amp circuit I put in my studio, for example). It's gonna be 15 amps.
You absolutely CANNOT replace the breaker without rewiring. It's extremely dangerous to have a 20 amp breaker on a 15 amp circuit.
There are no 35 or 40 amp outlets, unless you are talking about a stove or dryer circuit, and good luck plugging your gear into that
I would not daisy chain conditioners, I would buy a single unit with adequate capacity for the whole rack. Honestly, 20u is not that big of a rack. If you had 40u, I'd split the rack in two and get to power supplies, yes.
We're talking about what, another 6' of power cable? I highly, highly doubt you could measure any difference.
Well I use voltage regulators and UPS, which does a lot more than conditioning. Isn't that worth it?
FALKEN said:
That isn't much, figure 50W per item, a little more for the tube pres (actually the power consumption is probably much less than that), so maybe 600W as an extremely conservative estimate. I suspect it's really closer to 200W.
Maybe 1200W total max draw (dunno about the reel to reel, but look on the back, all this stuff should be labeled), which is 10 amps. That's plenty of cushion for one 15 amp circuit.
It could be, but it's not likely. To find out, turn the light on, and turn everything else off. Get a nightlight or something else you can quickly plug in to check an outlet.
Go to your panel, and turn off circuits until you find the right one (they are supposed to be labeled, so it should be pretty easy. When you have the circuit with the light off, turn all the other circuits back on. Go to the room, and plug the nightlight into all the outlets. If it doesn't work, then all the outlets are on one circuit. If it works in some outlets, those outlets are on a different circuit.
mshilarious
Banned
SonicAlbert said:
Well due to Furman, that's what conditioning means now. You're probably talking about voltage regulation.
Washing machines are supposed to be on dedicated circuits. Window AC units are too, but probably few people bother.
Vacuum cleaners take gobs of power, so definitely kill your PC & rack before you vacuum, or run the vacuum from a circuit outside the studio. 90% of the circuits I've ever tripped, a vacuum cleaner was the last straw
SonicAlbert
Super-Sonic "Herb" Albert
mshilarious said:
What I've always considered power conditioning is a box that takes the electrical signal and cleans it up, outputting a clean sine wave. I'm sure that's what Furman engineers consider conditioning as well, but their marketing department has muddied up the waters a bit. Furman does make true conditioners as well as the rack strips most people think are conditioners, so Furman the company certainly knows the difference.
mshilarious
Banned
SonicAlbert said:
Oh yeah. Those are a bit more pricy
H
heroics321
New member
xstatic said:
boy, i'm glad i don't do live sound. i bet that would have made for an interesting light show. your $5 power strip from big lots will most likely not protect against such a situation, but your slightly pricier models usually feature some sort of similar protection circuit/in-line fuse that i can't imagine wouldn't cut the power to the other units under those circumstances. i don't think there's a general rule to these strips, so it'd have to be on a case by case basis.
SonicAlbert said:
the only argument against this is that you could trip some of your bars into off mode... nothing dangerous, just annoying.
X
xstatic
New member
You should be able to easily run all of that on one circuit. I had to run a show the other day on two circuits. I was able to power A Midas Venice, Crest CA18, CA12 and CA9, 2 Crown Macrotech 2400's, BSS Omnidrive, BSS FCS966 EQ, Ashly Protea digital 4 channel EQ, MArantz CD Player, 2 yamaha spx900's, 1 TC M1, 1 Roland SDR3000, 2 DBX 1074 quad gates, 2 DBX1066 compressors, 1 DBX 1046 compressor, 2 DBX 160a compressors, and 2 BSS compressors all on two circuits. That isn't necessarily advisable, but it just shows that it is most certainly usable. It wasn't a really quiet show either. It was only a 300 person room, but it was show volume. BTW, that is also close to 40 rack spaces of gear, a console, and 5 PRO amps.