I have an interesting problem-it's probably not unique and would like to hear your thoughts...I'm planning on recording a cd in the next little while...one of the songs I wrote with another guy about 5 years ago-he was strumming a guitar and I got a melody idea and told him to continue repeating that pattern...I sang a melody over it-with words in the chorus and a few lines to a verse...I put a lead line to it...we practised the tune in rehearsal a few times but it never came to anything-until now ...I have completed the lyrics and transposed the chord progression to another key...Here are the questions: I'm ready to copyright the song and I've spoken to him recently and he is put off by any talk regarding copyright or percentages, etc. He says I should do what I want and he doesn't care. He is now involved in the booking side of the music biz and he has hard feelings about the bands he played in, etc and doesn't even care to discuss anything from this time period. He has heard my demos of the new song and thinks it's pretty good but he just laughs off any talk about potential royalties etc, since it is going to be an independent release and he doesn't think it'll sell more than a few thousand copies at most.I'm trying to be generous and give him credit and take care of things because I think it will get airplay-I'm working with an engineer and producer who work with major acts and are in the business of getting their stuff on the radio. So I think it will sell a little more than a few thousand(but it won't be a hit, that's for sure-I don't have the marketing budget). To recap-he was playing a chord progression that I took and made into a song...finally completing it just recently...it is a very basic progression, etc, but I thought it would be fair to give him some credit-although I've heard that a progression is not copyrightable, it was the spark that started the song...so if lyrics and melody make up 50 % and music the other 50-I'd like to credit him for 15 percent of the song...what are your thoughts? Also, if I want to publish this through my own company does he have to sign anything or be affiliated with another publisher(he doesn't have one) and if our recent communications are any indication, he will refuse to discuss the song or anything about it. It is a sore spot for him and when I probed a little deeper-I thought he should be thankful rather than resentful that I'm anxious to credit him-I found out that on a more recent project he was "burned" by the singer of the band, who didn't give him due credit on an album that didn't sell much but got a little bit of airplay. The last things he said were, do what you want-whatever you think is fair, I don't care, and I don't even want to talk about it...Can his reluctance to discuss or sign anything put a snag on anything, or can I just put his name and address and the songwriting split on any documents(PA form, SOCAN registration(in Canada and publishing documents) Thanks for your thoughts and I have a few more questions similar to this situations...stay tuned... LoL !
copyrighting/publishing
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gibs
New member
Well I do know that it's common to co-write with points being for what was contributed...people do it all the time...lots of time producers get a co-writing credit and they didn't have jack to do with the creation...but that's another thread...your friends reluctance to wanna be affiliated with the tune concerns me..what if the "impossible" happened and it was a seller?..would he then at that stage really dig the song?....yer best bet is to put him on the copyright, there's space to fill in such as that on them, and you also fill out what the contribution was by the person you're listing...the short form does not allow you to do this, you have to use the standard forms.....and I think it's on the continuation sheet that you get with the main form...the monetary deal is something you have to work out among yourselves, the copyright office has nothing to do with that...there are lots of people that would be happy with one percent of a big seller, I know I would.....you might wanna go to the government website to see what you can download or whatever and get more info than I'm providing...gibs www.loc.gov/copyright
Sounds to me like he doesn't have any interest in the song period. He said you should do what you want, and doesn't care.
Have you asked him whether you can have total rights to the song? It seems like you've written most of it anyway. I had a similiar situation, although no money was involved. A friend of mine had a great hook line type melody. I wrote chords around it, but dropped the melody. I asked him what he though about it, and he didn't care much at all. Since you can't copyright a chord progression (or can you, if so I'm in trouble), and this guy seems totally disinterested in whatever may happen, I would just forget about him. Copyright it in your own name, you did the work.
[This message has been edited by Emeric (edited 05-27-2000).]
Have you asked him whether you can have total rights to the song? It seems like you've written most of it anyway. I had a similiar situation, although no money was involved. A friend of mine had a great hook line type melody. I wrote chords around it, but dropped the melody. I asked him what he though about it, and he didn't care much at all. Since you can't copyright a chord progression (or can you, if so I'm in trouble), and this guy seems totally disinterested in whatever may happen, I would just forget about him. Copyright it in your own name, you did the work.
[This message has been edited by Emeric (edited 05-27-2000).]
Emerick-it's interesting that you brought up the issue of sole rights to the song. As I understand it, even if someone else contributes in a very minor way to the song-say 5 or 10 percent or whatever , they still have an equal right to do with it what they please. In my case, since he has repeatedly stated that he doesn't care about the song,and the fact that he seems to view my communications with him on the matter some kind of hassle or headache, and as I see it I am erring on the side of generousity in terms of giving proper credit(others may differ with this opinion), this would be a situation that I wouldn't find favorable. What do you know about "sole rights" to a song and do you think I'd have to get him to sign over the rights on the copyright form PA? I expect that if I brought it up, he wouldn't want to sign anything and he'd outright refuse to talk about it.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gibs:
Well I do know that it's common to co-write with points being for what was contributed...people do it all the time...lots of time producers get a co-writing credit and they didn't have jack to do with the creation...but that's another thread...your friends reluctance to wanna be affiliated with the tune concerns me..what if the "impossible" happened and it was a seller?..would he then at that stage really dig the song?....yer best bet is to put him on the copyright, there's space to fill in such as that on them, and you also fill out what the contribution was by the person you're listing...the short form does not allow you to do this, you have to use the standard forms.....and I think it's on the continuation sheet that you get with the main form...the monetary deal is something you have to work out among yourselves, the copyright office has nothing to do with that...there are lots of people that would be happy with one percent of a big seller, I know I would.....you might wanna go to the government website to see what you can download or whatever and get more info than I'm providing...gibs www.loc.gov/copyright <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is exactly why I want to take care of things now. He doesn't want to be associated with it at this point but if the song gets some major airplay then things could change. In fact, it's not inconceivable that he could try to claim that he was entitled to 50 % of the songwriting credit. As I understand it, unless you have a legal agreement stating otherwise, any joint music writing venture is, in the eyes of the law, a 50/50 split. It has just been an understanding, or verbal agreement, that I wrote everything (except the initial basic chord progression).And he will likely refuse to sign anything, complicating matters further.
Well I do know that it's common to co-write with points being for what was contributed...people do it all the time...lots of time producers get a co-writing credit and they didn't have jack to do with the creation...but that's another thread...your friends reluctance to wanna be affiliated with the tune concerns me..what if the "impossible" happened and it was a seller?..would he then at that stage really dig the song?....yer best bet is to put him on the copyright, there's space to fill in such as that on them, and you also fill out what the contribution was by the person you're listing...the short form does not allow you to do this, you have to use the standard forms.....and I think it's on the continuation sheet that you get with the main form...the monetary deal is something you have to work out among yourselves, the copyright office has nothing to do with that...there are lots of people that would be happy with one percent of a big seller, I know I would.....you might wanna go to the government website to see what you can download or whatever and get more info than I'm providing...gibs www.loc.gov/copyright <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is exactly why I want to take care of things now. He doesn't want to be associated with it at this point but if the song gets some major airplay then things could change. In fact, it's not inconceivable that he could try to claim that he was entitled to 50 % of the songwriting credit. As I understand it, unless you have a legal agreement stating otherwise, any joint music writing venture is, in the eyes of the law, a 50/50 split. It has just been an understanding, or verbal agreement, that I wrote everything (except the initial basic chord progression).And he will likely refuse to sign anything, complicating matters further.
gibs
New member
Sounds like a disagreeable sort...has anybody but you heard him say he doesn't want anything to do with it, that you can do as you like, etc...if so, copyright it and consider it yours....and if ya want to, throw him a bone (contribution of some small kind...I think on the forms, you can specifically state the nature of it...such as one verse, or riff, or whatever...)If he wanted to get bitchy and other people have heard him make his comments, he wouldn't have a leg to stand on...and you're the one with the legal copyright anyhow....and if the song was a hit you'd be rich enough to win in court with the evidence you'd presented too.....gibs
dobro
Well-known member
Yeah, sounds like Gibs has got it - you're in the driver's seat, since you're the first one to come up with an official copyright. If your concern is one of generosity, put his name on the copyright registration for a share; if your concern is legal, it's your call. You trying to cover yourself, or be fair to him?
Buck62
噛んでくれ
Simple solution:
First, play the song for him.
Then, have a typed statement that's something like this....
"I, (his name), have heard the song (name of song), and despite my contribution of the original chord progression to this song, I relinquish all rights and royalties to (sport) on this date of 28 May 2000. I do this, being of sound mind, and not under duress.
(That last sentence is just to verify that you're not holding a gun to his head to make him sign the statement)
If he still wants to sign away his rights, then have him do so. Now, you're the sole owner of the song, and you're free to copyright it.
Make sure to give him a copy of the letter, so he can look at it and kick himself in the ass later if the song becomes a hit.
BTW, make sure that you sign the letter also, to verify that this was a consensual agreement.
First, play the song for him.
Then, have a typed statement that's something like this....
"I, (his name), have heard the song (name of song), and despite my contribution of the original chord progression to this song, I relinquish all rights and royalties to (sport) on this date of 28 May 2000. I do this, being of sound mind, and not under duress.
(That last sentence is just to verify that you're not holding a gun to his head to make him sign the statement)
If he still wants to sign away his rights, then have him do so. Now, you're the sole owner of the song, and you're free to copyright it.
Make sure to give him a copy of the letter, so he can look at it and kick himself in the ass later if the song becomes a hit.
BTW, make sure that you sign the letter also, to verify that this was a consensual agreement.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gibs:
Sounds like a disagreeable sort...has anybody but you heard him say he doesn't want anything to do with it, that you can do as you like, etc...if so, copyright it and consider it yours....and if ya want to, throw him a bone (contribution of some small kind...I think on the forms, you can specifically state the nature of it...such as one verse, or riff, or whatever...)If he wanted to get bitchy and other people have heard him make his comments, he wouldn't have a leg to stand on...and you're the one with the legal copyright anyhow....and if the song was a hit you'd be rich enough to win in court with the evidence you'd presented too.....gibs<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, noone else has heard our discussions. I think I'm going to stick with the plan of giving him 15 percent of the song. Any thoughts on whether this is a reasonable percentage to allot for his contribution?(you don't hear alot about how songwriters work the split between themselves)
Sounds like a disagreeable sort...has anybody but you heard him say he doesn't want anything to do with it, that you can do as you like, etc...if so, copyright it and consider it yours....and if ya want to, throw him a bone (contribution of some small kind...I think on the forms, you can specifically state the nature of it...such as one verse, or riff, or whatever...)If he wanted to get bitchy and other people have heard him make his comments, he wouldn't have a leg to stand on...and you're the one with the legal copyright anyhow....and if the song was a hit you'd be rich enough to win in court with the evidence you'd presented too.....gibs<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, noone else has heard our discussions. I think I'm going to stick with the plan of giving him 15 percent of the song. Any thoughts on whether this is a reasonable percentage to allot for his contribution?(you don't hear alot about how songwriters work the split between themselves)
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dobro:
Yeah, sounds like Gibs has got it - you're in the driver's seat, since you're the first one to come up with an official copyright. If your concern is one of generosity, put his name on the copyright registration for a share; if your concern is legal, it's your call. You trying to cover yourself, or be fair to him?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Both. 'Cause I know that he may have a change of heart. He's fed up and bitter about the music scene right now, but I bet that when he hears a good recording of the tune, he'll think it's cool.
Yeah, sounds like Gibs has got it - you're in the driver's seat, since you're the first one to come up with an official copyright. If your concern is one of generosity, put his name on the copyright registration for a share; if your concern is legal, it's your call. You trying to cover yourself, or be fair to him?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Both. 'Cause I know that he may have a change of heart. He's fed up and bitter about the music scene right now, but I bet that when he hears a good recording of the tune, he'll think it's cool.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Buck62:
Simple solution:
First, play the song for him.
Then, have a typed statement that's something like this....
"I, (his name), have heard the song (name of song), and despite my contribution of the original chord progression to this song, I relinquish all rights and royalties to (sport) on this date of 28 May 2000. I do this, being of sound mind, and not under duress.
(That last sentence is just to verify that you're not holding a gun to his head to make him sign the statement)
If he still wants to sign away his rights, then have him do so. Now, you're the sole owner of the song, and you're free to copyright it.
Make sure to give him a copy of the letter, so he can look at it and kick himself in the ass later if the song becomes a hit.
BTW, make sure that you sign the letter also, to verify that this was a consensual agreement.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Good idea, but if he doesn't want to sign anything, am I not free to copyright it and list us both as the writers? I may also give him a point on the record because I might take a few other ideas from our jam sessions. None of them were complete songs-usually just a chorus or hook here and there. The lyrics and melodies were all mine and the music was mostly mine, with a couple exceptions(like the chord progression I've been talking about). I feel that he assisted in the writing of the music in ways that maybe were not technically part of the songwriting process- like playing guitar while I worked on melodies, and singing my melody while I worked on a guitar line,etc. Basically, I kind of told him what to play. To be honest, without me reminding him, he wouldn't remember half of the stuff-he'll say things like, 'I remember that song, I can't remember if I did the guitar line or if you did it" I have some rehearsal tapes from that period, and I'm sure he does as well. In some it is clear that I'm doing the writing and leading the way, in others it is not. So, in keeping all this in mind, I thought I might give him points on the record for 'preproduction'. It's a weird situation I admit, but the fact is there were some great ideas that came out of our jam sessions, and I've put in a lot of work writing and rewriting these songs.
Also, do you know anything about the publishing implications? If he refuses to communicate on the issue(by not signing anything), does this put any snags on my ability to publish or collect royalties. For example, can I put out this tune on my own publishing company with him not having one , or does he have to be affiliated with a publishing company or BMI or whatever?
Simple solution:
First, play the song for him.
Then, have a typed statement that's something like this....
"I, (his name), have heard the song (name of song), and despite my contribution of the original chord progression to this song, I relinquish all rights and royalties to (sport) on this date of 28 May 2000. I do this, being of sound mind, and not under duress.
(That last sentence is just to verify that you're not holding a gun to his head to make him sign the statement)
If he still wants to sign away his rights, then have him do so. Now, you're the sole owner of the song, and you're free to copyright it.
Make sure to give him a copy of the letter, so he can look at it and kick himself in the ass later if the song becomes a hit.
BTW, make sure that you sign the letter also, to verify that this was a consensual agreement.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Good idea, but if he doesn't want to sign anything, am I not free to copyright it and list us both as the writers? I may also give him a point on the record because I might take a few other ideas from our jam sessions. None of them were complete songs-usually just a chorus or hook here and there. The lyrics and melodies were all mine and the music was mostly mine, with a couple exceptions(like the chord progression I've been talking about). I feel that he assisted in the writing of the music in ways that maybe were not technically part of the songwriting process- like playing guitar while I worked on melodies, and singing my melody while I worked on a guitar line,etc. Basically, I kind of told him what to play. To be honest, without me reminding him, he wouldn't remember half of the stuff-he'll say things like, 'I remember that song, I can't remember if I did the guitar line or if you did it" I have some rehearsal tapes from that period, and I'm sure he does as well. In some it is clear that I'm doing the writing and leading the way, in others it is not. So, in keeping all this in mind, I thought I might give him points on the record for 'preproduction'. It's a weird situation I admit, but the fact is there were some great ideas that came out of our jam sessions, and I've put in a lot of work writing and rewriting these songs.
Also, do you know anything about the publishing implications? If he refuses to communicate on the issue(by not signing anything), does this put any snags on my ability to publish or collect royalties. For example, can I put out this tune on my own publishing company with him not having one , or does he have to be affiliated with a publishing company or BMI or whatever?
Buck62
噛んでくれ
If he refuses to sign anything, don't bother to give him shit.
Let me explain....
A chord progression is a basic, standard thing. Any chord progression you can think of has already been done by someone else. Music is a very limited entity. There's only so many notes to work with.
Compare the song "Runaround" by Blues Traveler and the song by Sister Hazel that goes... "Hard to say what it is I see in you" (Hard To Say?).
Anyway, they have the same chord progression, in the same key, at the same tempo... big deal.
Do you think that anybody has the sole rights on the chords D, C, and G? There's a million songs written using only those 3 chords.
I suggest you copyright the song on your own. This guy is blowing you off like you're some kind of idiot, while you continue to be honest and decent about the whole thing.
Don't be a sap. If he doesn't want to be involved, don't force the issue. You'd probably be worse off if you DID cut him in for 15 percent without his approval. Sounds to me like your pissing him off at this point, because he could care less about the song.
"NO" means "no". You haven't even made a cent off of this song, and it might never go anywhere... so why press the issue?
If there's ever a problem, just refer back to this page on this BBS. We'll all be witnesses to the fact that you tried to cut him in, but he refused.
But, if that happens, I want MY 15 percent for helping you out.
[This message has been edited by Buck62 (edited 05-29-2000).]
Let me explain....
A chord progression is a basic, standard thing. Any chord progression you can think of has already been done by someone else. Music is a very limited entity. There's only so many notes to work with.
Compare the song "Runaround" by Blues Traveler and the song by Sister Hazel that goes... "Hard to say what it is I see in you" (Hard To Say?).
Anyway, they have the same chord progression, in the same key, at the same tempo... big deal.
Do you think that anybody has the sole rights on the chords D, C, and G? There's a million songs written using only those 3 chords.
I suggest you copyright the song on your own. This guy is blowing you off like you're some kind of idiot, while you continue to be honest and decent about the whole thing.
Don't be a sap. If he doesn't want to be involved, don't force the issue. You'd probably be worse off if you DID cut him in for 15 percent without his approval. Sounds to me like your pissing him off at this point, because he could care less about the song.
"NO" means "no". You haven't even made a cent off of this song, and it might never go anywhere... so why press the issue?
If there's ever a problem, just refer back to this page on this BBS. We'll all be witnesses to the fact that you tried to cut him in, but he refused.
But, if that happens, I want MY 15 percent for helping you out.
[This message has been edited by Buck62 (edited 05-29-2000).]
Sport,
I appreciate Buck62's opinion from previous posts, but I disagree. If the song were to amount to anything, you'd be in worse shape if you Did Not credit and pay your friend. Let me explain. If your former bandmate were to ever try to take you to court, the first issues that would come up would be (Did you credit him?, Did you pay him? Did you discuss the issue with him?) If you did not pay or credit him AND a court found that he did "contribute" to the song (even though this is debatable), you would be seen as "stealing" the song, despite your best efforts and intentions. Your lack of action would be viewed as willfull negligence (read: you'd owe more.... statuatory AND punitive damages).
I say be safe and not sorry. If he won't sign it, put his name and info on the copyright form. The form requires a signature, so bring the form with a WITNESS to him and ask him to sign. If he doesn't want to, you have a witness who can attest that you attempted to get him to sign the form. Then, put a note on his signature line saying that he refuses to sign the form. Go ahead and pay him 15% of the mechanical royalty and leave it at that (what's 15% of 7.55 cents?).
I would suggest that you NOT pay him the extra point on the record. Don't confuse things, just pay him for his portion of the song. Releasing an indie record, you're going to need every cent you can get/keep. As far as assigning to your publishing company, you cannot "force" him to assign the song to your publishing company. Bring an assignment form with you when you go to him about signing the copyright form. If he signs the publishing form, then fine. If he doesn't, then 15% of the song is "published" by him. Just list him as a songwriter in the credits and list your publishing company.
Life works in strange ways... The one song that you didn't clear everything on usually turns out to the "big one" and then things get nasty and you'll lose more than you've gained. Inaction is viewed as "negligence", so take the bull by the horns and get everything clear before you start selling CD's. My $0.02
Rev E
I appreciate Buck62's opinion from previous posts, but I disagree. If the song were to amount to anything, you'd be in worse shape if you Did Not credit and pay your friend. Let me explain. If your former bandmate were to ever try to take you to court, the first issues that would come up would be (Did you credit him?, Did you pay him? Did you discuss the issue with him?) If you did not pay or credit him AND a court found that he did "contribute" to the song (even though this is debatable), you would be seen as "stealing" the song, despite your best efforts and intentions. Your lack of action would be viewed as willfull negligence (read: you'd owe more.... statuatory AND punitive damages).
I say be safe and not sorry. If he won't sign it, put his name and info on the copyright form. The form requires a signature, so bring the form with a WITNESS to him and ask him to sign. If he doesn't want to, you have a witness who can attest that you attempted to get him to sign the form. Then, put a note on his signature line saying that he refuses to sign the form. Go ahead and pay him 15% of the mechanical royalty and leave it at that (what's 15% of 7.55 cents?).
I would suggest that you NOT pay him the extra point on the record. Don't confuse things, just pay him for his portion of the song. Releasing an indie record, you're going to need every cent you can get/keep. As far as assigning to your publishing company, you cannot "force" him to assign the song to your publishing company. Bring an assignment form with you when you go to him about signing the copyright form. If he signs the publishing form, then fine. If he doesn't, then 15% of the song is "published" by him. Just list him as a songwriter in the credits and list your publishing company.
Life works in strange ways... The one song that you didn't clear everything on usually turns out to the "big one" and then things get nasty and you'll lose more than you've gained. Inaction is viewed as "negligence", so take the bull by the horns and get everything clear before you start selling CD's. My $0.02
Rev E
Thanks everyone for your thoughtful answers. It was good to bounce things off other people. I'm still going to see a lawyer(about other issues as well) but your replies and possible scenarios that we've discussed will probably leave me better prepared to bring up certain points with the lawyer(and hopefully save time!) I'll keep you posted...
CharlesThomas
New member
>First, play the song for him.
>Then, have a typed statement that's something like this....
Not that it's the ETHICAL thing to do (for the ethical thing to do, see the quoted passage above), but if you have the copyright and he, later, decides to contest it for his share of the royalties, woudn't the burden of proof would be on him to show that he contributed somehow? I'm not sure he could provide any evidence of it if it was just the two of you working together.
I'd hope this is the case, otherwise every Tom, Dick and Harry would be able to sue for a portion of the songwriting credit for every hit song out there. Not that they don't try...
CT
>Then, have a typed statement that's something like this....
Not that it's the ETHICAL thing to do (for the ethical thing to do, see the quoted passage above), but if you have the copyright and he, later, decides to contest it for his share of the royalties, woudn't the burden of proof would be on him to show that he contributed somehow? I'm not sure he could provide any evidence of it if it was just the two of you working together.
I'd hope this is the case, otherwise every Tom, Dick and Harry would be able to sue for a portion of the songwriting credit for every hit song out there. Not that they don't try...
CT
To be honest it sounds that you and your friends have a good kind of relationship. I think you should play him the song and see what he thinks. Get him to sign a copy as mentioned as well as yourself and maybe even a third party. Buy your friend a drink and leave it at that. You have covered yourself and are free to play the song.
Once you do have copyright post it somewhere and let us all hear it-we'll pass opinion on wheather it's a next big hit.
Once you do have copyright post it somewhere and let us all hear it-we'll pass opinion on wheather it's a next big hit.