Copyright ?

[bubinski]

How big a pain in the butt is it to copyright a song ?
Any links to explain the process ?
bubinski

 

[gec]

Pretty simple acually.... fill out a form and mail it along with the material and $30.......... Takes awhile though to get it back.... Heres the link to the forms you will either wanna fill out PA or SR depending on the copyright you need. Please do a search of the site b4 you ask the famous ? whats the difference between PA & SR.......

http://www.loc.gov/copyright/


and read the stuff on this site:

http://www.music-law.com/

 

[dajuan]

http://www.grandcentralmusic.com/song_copyright.htm

 

[lodang]

Registered your records?

Hello,
I wonder what benefits can one get by registering copyrights for a record if he/she fails to even publish it to the public? Is it realistic for a person to receive copyright for something that lacks public recognition? Please explain it to me.
Thanks.

 

[SalJustSal]

Lodang - If you plan to not make your material available to the public there is probably no need to copyright. What I get out of it is that if you aren't going to make a record available to the public you plan to make no money off of it. The only way that someone would take you to court over a copyright would be over money. If you didn't want anyone to make money off of your record then it might be a good idea to register your copyright (but if you didn't make the song public then someone taking your record is unlikely).

Bubinski - Actually, to copyright something is very easy, you simply do nothing. The moment you write or record something it's copyrighted. What is harder however is proving that your song was written before someone elses and that no theft was involved. The most official way is the way gec pointed out, register it. However, just because it's registered it doesn't mean that you would necessarily win a legal dispute. Registering your copyright is just an official way of saying "I made this thing on this date", but has no bearance on whether you ripped it off from someone or not.

If you wanted to copyright a single song I'd say not to waste the 30 bucks unless you planned to make a decent amount of money off of it. I'd wait until you get a number of songs and then register a collection of songs all at once. If you want cheap legal protection, mail the song and lyrics to yourself and don't open it. It's not official but it will help prove when your song was created. I'd also recommend letting other people listen to it; these could be witnesses in the future. Hmm.. also if you could get your song/album reviewed in a publication (local newspaper or something), that would be documented proof too. This is all turning into mass paranoia, so I'm going to be done talking now. The point is not necessarily to be "registered" but being able to prove when you created your work.

-Sal

 

[czar of bizarre]

first go to this link:

http://www.showbiz-lawyer.com/articles/copyright-infringement.htm

as for mailing yourself something in the mail thats all fine and ddandy but you WONT be able to collect DAMAGES in case of infringement. heres an excerpt from that link:

Some authors mail a copy of their work to themselves, just as some screenwriters file their works with the Writer's Guild of America. This practice (known as "poor man's copyright") merely establishes that, as of a certain date (the postmark or WGA filing date), the work existed, thus predating any subsequent infringing work. It does not create protection (because protection already existed when the work was written down) and, more importantly, does not provide the benefits that a formal copyright registration does.

HERE IS THE MAIN REASON WHY YOU SHOULD REGISTER YOUR WORK AND THIS IS TAKEN FROM THAT LINK ALSO

You are able to sue for infringement in U.S. District Court. Without registration, any lawsuit that you bring will automatically be dismissed. SO WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE THE "POOR MANS COPYRIGHT"?????????????????

heres another link you can go to:
http://www.jerseyjam.com/Legal/Copyright.htm

here are excerpts from that link:

First, you need to register before you can sue for infringement

there are two other reasons to register your copyright. Registering your copyright gives you two additional remedies which are unavailable to those who do not register. First, you are entitled to attorney's fees.

Finally, you are entitled to statutory damages

i had the link to the actual penal code/law that stated a person would not recover damages if it wasnt REGISTERED but i cant find it now. anyway you should REGISTER your work with the correct forms.


CZAR

 

[SalJustSal]

Czar, you are missing some of the details...

Your message says that you can't have an infringement suit if you aren't registered. This is true but the catch is you can register at anytime in your life, not only when the work is first created. If you aren't registered and you find that someone is using your work, you can *then* register and then sue them. Your filing date and your copyright date are two separate things. The only problem with registering right before an infringement suit is that it can take up to 9 months for your registration to be processed, delaying your court date.

If you weren't registered prior to the suit (or your filing date and copyright date are more than 3 months apart on registration) you can sue for actual damages and profits.

If you are registered timely (within 3 month interval) you can also sue for attorney fees and statutory damages. Statutory damages range from, I believe, 200 dollars to 10 grand. The sweet thing about statutory damages is that they can incur even if there was no profit made from the infringement (although how often this is actually awarded in a real court situation, I'm unsure of).

I got my information directly from the US copyright office webpage, specifically:

http://www.loc.gov/copyright/circs/circ1.html#wccc

and more specifically under the heading "Copyright Registration".

Hope this clears up some of the confusion...

-Sal

 

[czar of bizarre]

sal besides saving $30 what benifits does the "poor mans copyright" offer to the person who is in need of protection?


as far as missing some details thats not true because most of what you typed can be found on BOTH links that i posted. however bubinski doesnt have to take my advice nor does he have to take the advice of anyone on this bbs. he should take teh advice of professionals who have made PLATINUM records. from METALLICA to SNOOP DOGGY DOG to GEORGE CLINTON to CHER. i doubt that ANY of those people mailed something to themselves in the mail and that was what my posyt was about.


simply put this is a music BUSINESS and in order to PROTECT yourself from litigation or to protect your work you should file and take the appropriate steps. that way you wont have to worry about 90 days here or 9 months lag time there.


so what happens if you didnt register within the 3 month time frame????? if you register 5 years after you made a song and someone else has a song similar to yours BUT they registered would you win?????? what if they didnt register how can you prove the case and that your work was an original work and that you are the owner of the work????????


$30 to save your INVESTMENT (your music)


think about it


czar

 

[SalJustSal]

Czar,

Dude, you still don't understand. Maybe I'm not explaining this clearly.

so what happens if you didnt register within the 3 month time frame?????

You aren't capable of receiving Statuatory damages or compensation of attorney fees but still can get damages and profits.

if you register 5 years after you made a song and someone else has a song similar to yours BUT they registered would you win??????

You could. Registration doesn't determine who wins a case, it simply is a legal document of the time your work was created. For instance, Person A made an album in 1980 (oh those sweet years ) but never copyrighted it. Person B comes along and completely rips off the album and registers it in 1990. Person B becomes aware of this and decides to take Person B to court. Before Person A does this he has to register his copyright first. He does so (note: this could take up to 9 months however!!!). Person B won't necessarily win because he copyrighted first. If Person A has enough evidence (witnesses, newspaper reviews, poor man's copyright) to prove that he made the album first, Person A will win. Because he registered after 3 months of the copyright date he can's sue for statutory or lawyer fees, but still could get damages and profits from Person B.

what if they didnt register how can you prove the case and that your work was an original work and that you are the owner of the work????????

as stated above, such things as witnesses, album reviews, poor man's copyright. Anything that supports that you created it at that time.

as far as missing some details thats not true because most of what you typed can be found on BOTH links that i posted. however bubinski doesnt have to take my advice nor does he have to take the advice of anyone on this bbs.

Well you read BOTH of those sites and still don't seem to understand it. I don't "blame" this on you though. Yes most of that info is on the cites that you listed, but it seemed too unclear (what does that say about music lawyers?), so I looked around and pieced it together.

bubinski never revealed what he wanted to copyright or how serious he was about protecting his work. If it's just a song and you are a small time local outfit, why waste 30 dollars on registering a single song. You could just poor man copyright it to himself for decent protection. If he was planning on getting into a larger operation where there tends to be more risk, then yes, it would be wise to register it. 30 bucks can be a lot of money for some, but if you're busting out several grand for an album then that's nickel and dimes, so why not.

he should take teh advice of professionals who have made PLATINUM records. from METALLICA to SNOOP DOGGY DOG to GEORGE CLINTON to CHER. i doubt that ANY of those people mailed something to themselves in the mail and that was what my posyt was about

Uh... I'm guessing that the bands that you listed don't even own the rights to their songs. This is generally the case with major labels; that's what contracts are all about. So take their advice: "sell out and lose all creative rights to your works". I guess if you like that sort of thing.

Also one final note. Sometimes it's good *not* to register. I'm not sure if this is the case with the music industry but in the writing industry sometimes large companies consider registration before publication a lack of trust and will be discouraged from accepting you submission.

-Sal

 

[gec]

well.....this post sure turned into a heated discussion..............

Bubinski look at all this information these guys gave you......Your options are out in the open now....I think you should thank them for the effort put into this post.......I think you both made some good points....................reminds me why I pay my publisher

 

[czar of bizarre]

You aren't capable of receiving Statuatory damages or compensation of attorney fees but still can get damages and profits.

so registering on time would allow you to receive STATUATORY damages and attorney fees. for $30 bucks the person is allowed to be reimbursed when it comes to attornies fees (which have the potential to become expensive) and receive statuatory damages? qucik question. if YOU were in the involved in a case of infringement would you want to collect ALL that you can or only a portion?

Before Person A does this he has to register his copyright first.

so why not register his work BEFORE an infringement suit pops up? why not take the steps to make sure you are covered? so now you see that he MUST register. so to avoid the hassle and the reduced payment why not register it from the start? why dance with the devil and flirt with danger?

Because he registered after 3 months of the copyright date he can's sue for statutory or lawyer fees, but still could get damages and profits from Person B.

with that being said that should be MORE of a reason to want to register your work.

as stated above, such things as witnesses, album reviews, poor man's copyright. Anything that supports that you created it at that time.

simple registration and certificate will clear that up. no need for album reviews,a poor mans copyright or jehovahs witnesses.

Well you read BOTH of those sites and still don't seem to understand it.

no i do understand it and its quite simple. REGISTER your work and you can collect EVERYTHING. dont register your work and you wont be able to collect attorney fees and damages. i dont see how you come to the assessment that i dont understand what is going on.

If it's just a song and you are a small time local outfit, why waste 30 dollars on registering a single song.

who said he had to wait for a single song? he can do a cd. or if he wants he can register each song individually. even if it is "just a song" or a "small time local outfit" you should have a PROFESSIONAL outlook on PAPER WORK and OWNERSHIP of your material.

If he was planning on getting into a larger operation where there tends to be more risk, then yes, it would be wise to register it.

its not based on if he was getting into a larger operation or not.

1.you dont know WHO is listening to your music.

2.this is a BUSINESS and this business is cutt throat.

3.if he FEELS that his work should be protected (regardless of how large or small the project is) he should protect himself.

Uh... I'm guessing that the bands that you listed don't even own the rights to their songs.

some probably do. metallica must have owned something if not they would not be all over napster. im not saying that they own the masters to the work. however i am saying when they DID register the material (if it was the artist or the label) they didnt do so with a poor mans copyright. they filled out the appropriate forms and paid the appropriate fees.

So take their advice: "sell out and lose all creative rights to your works". I guess if you like that sort of thing.

just because you are signed to a major label does not mean that you have "SOLD OUT". no one forced anyone into a deal. so what about me? i have ascap and i have registered 20 songs with the us copyrights office. i am shopping a 4 song demo now so i can get funding for MARKETING and PROMOTIONS on a larger scale. if i have to split the publishing does that mean i sold out?

Also one final note. Sometimes it's good *not* to register. I'm not sure if this is the case with the music industry but in the writing industry sometimes large companies consider registration before publication a lack of trust and will be discouraged from accepting you submission.

i cant comment on that sir. simply because i am not in the "writing industry".


btw sal IN NO WAY am i trying to be offensive,shrewd,rude or disrespectful toward you or anyone on this board. thats not what i am here for and im sure thats not what you are here for. if ANY of my comments seem offensive or disturbing i apologize.

IMHO i believe that when you are in rome you should do as the romans do. if the PROFESSIONALS are filing paperwork a certain way maybe one should think about doing it also.



czar


ps gec do you have ascap AND bmi or just one?

 

[gec]

Hey Czar,

I have my own publishing company thats affilaited with ASCAP< NMPA<Harry Fox Agency.........and a co-publishing deal with a bigger publisher who collects the royalties they don't

 

[SalJustSal]

Czar,

i dont see how you come to the assessment that i dont understand what is going on.

I came to that assessment because of what you said in your previous posts. I don't care to point out every little occurence and turn this into a big ego match. From your last post, you now seem to have a good grasp of the details. I think we've both learned a lot from this discussion (I know I didn't know nearly as much since I started looking around for info).

just because you are signed to a major label does not mean that you have "SOLD OUT". no one forced anyone into a deal. so what about me? i have ascap and i have registered 20 songs with the us copyrights office. i am shopping a 4 song demo now so i can get funding for MARKETING and PROMOTIONS on a larger scale. if i have to split the publishing does that mean i sold out?

By all means, I don't consider what you are doing is selling out. If a person gives up their rights to their creative works for money, then I would consider what they are doing "selling out". Also, I've heard that the band White Stripes signed to a major label but were able to retain the rights to their masters and music. I wouldn't consider this selling out.

btw sal IN NO WAY am i trying to be offensive,shrewd,rude or disrespectful toward you or anyone on this board. thats not what i am here for and im sure thats not what you are here for. if ANY of my comments seem offensive or disturbing i apologize.

one tip then: don't type things in CAPITALS, this is often looked upon as yelling.


My point wasn't that you should never register. It's a good thing and generally most of the time you should. My main points have been:

-"Registration" doesn't mean "copyright"
-Registration isn't necessary to win a case
-You often need more evidence than registration to win a case
-If the outfit is small and 30 dollars is a lot of money for you, don't have a hemorage over registration, It's not necessary but it helps.

How small is small. That depends on the person.

Overall, it's like car insurance. If you have a car that you've spent a decent amount of money on, you'll want full coverage. If you paid very little for the car and you don't expect it to go up in value, then liability is fine.

Also, I want to put the two main benfits of Registration into perspective...(this is not to dismiss them, just to downplay their "magicalness")

1) Attorney fees: If you are a small operation, you are more than likely going to be taking your case to small claims court because damages will be relatively small. No attorneys.

2) Statutory charges: If they are like any other kind of statutory charges they are probably hard to obtain especially if the case is a small one. If the case was with a major label then yes, statutory damages are more likely to be obtained.

damn, this turned into another long response ,

-Sal

 

[SalJustSal]

argghh, I'm going off on tangents again, I think I'm done talking for awhile

 

[czar of bizarre]

one tip then: don't type things in CAPITALS, this is often looked upon as yelling.

you know i had that problem when i first posted on this board. its because im lazy and dont take the time to make the important things stand out with bold typing. im not one to adhere to certain rules. i dont see how *caps* can demonstrate ones emotions (anger) but i understand that CAPS do equate to yelling (on the net). so with that being said if that bothered you i apologize. to me the cap thingy is like taking off your hat in a building (i dont want a long speech on etiquette people and check the spelling on that word). what purpose does it serve?

My point wasn't that you should never register.

i understand that.
your points that you listed are valid points (you listed four) and are taken into consideration but this is a BUSINESS and one should strive to be PROFESSIONAL (those caps again). one should take the correct steps to reduce chaos and heartache in the long run. now if $30 is a lot to a musician he/she should do more gigs or save up enough scratch to register. if you need a microphone and they have $54 mics on sale will you purchase that or will you save up a lil more clams and buy a decent condenser for $150?

you mentioned car insurance and liability. you can drive without it (just like its not required to register). you dont need to have insurance to operate the vehicle (you dont need to register to "copyright" because you already have the copyright when the product is in a tangible or fixed form.) you need insurance because the law requires it (you need to register because it looks "professional" and it will save you $money$). so what if you dont have insurance and someone slams into you (you didnt register and someone rips you off)? if im not mistaking here in california it will be the fault of the driver who is not insured (you have a harder time proving your case).

yes you can drive that car without insurance but if you hit someone your finished,if you get hit your finished and if you get pulled over by a flat foot your finished and your car is impounded.


now as far as attorny fees go no lawyers in small claims court. however what about *filing* the claim,having the papers served etc etc etc? guess what? that exceeds $30 my friend. if im not mistaking those fees will fall under the attorney fees (i could be wrong but here in cali when you file a small claims you are entitled to collect those fees if you win). you use a very small word that has a huge impact on the entire ordeal. "if". "if" they are small or "if" it was against a major label. why be concerned with "if"?????????? why not protect yourself to the fullest extent as possible?



czar

ps tangents are great my friend. i have them all the time. just let it flow

 

[SalJustSal]

you mentioned car insurance and liability. you can drive without it (just like its not required to register). you dont need to have insurance to operate the vehicle (you dont need to register to "copyright" because you already have the copyright when the product is in a tangible or fixed form.) you need insurance because the law requires it (you need to register because it looks "professional" and it will save you $money$). so what if you dont have insurance and someone slams into you (you didnt register and someone rips you off)? if im not mistaking here in california it will be the fault of the driver who is not insured (you have a harder time proving your case).

my analogy was that "not registering" was like having "liability", not "having no insurance at all". Technically, your work is "insured" automatically, that's the nature of the copyright. The analogy simply means - pay little (or none) for alright protection", pay more for better protection. Different people have different tastes.

so what if you dont have insurance and someone slams into you (you didnt register and someone rips you off)?

This extention of my analogy assumes that registering will allow you to win in court. It won't. It's just evidence. Someone could "rip you off" even if you do register. Don't take the analogy too far.

now as far as attorny fees go no lawyers in small claims court. however what about *filing* the claim,having the papers served etc etc etc? guess what? that exceeds $30 my friend. if im not mistaking those fees will fall under the attorney fees (i could be wrong but here in cali when you file a small claims you are entitled to collect those fees if you win).

Firstly, I don't know if filing fees fall under attorney fees or not. Even if they do, they don't exceed $30. Or at least not here in Minnesota. Secondly, your argument assumes that you *will* go to court sometime in your life. It also seems to assumes that you will win your filing fees back if you register. Registration doesn't mean you will win a case. There's a good chance that you will never go to court over this sort of thing in your life. I may be wrong, but I'm guessing that most people that frequent this board never have went to court over this sort of thing. It would be cool to hear some stories of people that have though. Anybody?

-Sal

 

[NYMorningstar]

now as far as attorny fees go no lawyers in small claims court. however what about *filing* the claim,having the papers served etc etc etc? guess what? that exceeds $30 my friend. if im not mistaking those fees will fall under the attorney fees (i could be wrong but here in cali when you file a small claims you are entitled to collect those fees if you win).


Filing a claim in NY state only cost you $24.28 wherever you file and you'd better have exact change It's refundable if you win whether or not you registered. It's become painfully obvious though this argument has crept into the political realms of the liberal and conservative. It's funny how when you talk about legal stuff and lawyers it jumps into the political realm. Couldn't you even make a good analogy out of this with the nuclear arms race? Oh well, back to music...