Contemporary Country - Fallen Star

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darnold

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I got permission to post this up from the musician a while ago and havnt done it. Wanted to get a bit of critique on the mix in general. I havnt spent tons of time mixing it so its really basic. But please tell me what catches your attention as wrong. Dont be too obvious but i just want to get a few different opinions on it.

Its called Fallen Star. Its not full country but its the closest thing i can explain it. Its been a pretty laid back project and thisnt the only song. But its kind of the featured song. Written by Jared Devaraux.



Check it out and let me know.

Danny
 
Opening kick drum about 12db too loud.

Main vocal is a little too thin and airy. Needs more balls.

Bass guitar that comes in at around :35 is WAY too loud. Jarring.

The subtle delays are a nice touch.

Kick is generally too loud in comparison to the snare. The snare should *RULE* this song.

Around 1:58 the switch to the ride cymbal is a little sloppy. Why is it panned so far to the right? Seems a bit too far. I'm not sure if brit panned drums fit a country song.

I would like to hear more projection and oomph from the singer to carry this song. As it stands it drags a bit.
 
Cloneboy - Thanks for the reply. Yah the beginning kick is a little loud. Like i said this is a premix. There is no detailed automation yet. Its just a general mix. I really appreciate the comments although i disagree with most of them.

I disagree with the needs more balls on the vocals. Shes a soft vocalist. The style and mood of the song is looking for something soft and airy. I personally love the sound of the vocals and so does the writer. I personally think they are very thick and warm actually. Very surrounding in the mid range. It is very open which makes it sound airy. That was really more of the girls singing style in general. Very soft.

Whats too loud in the bass guitar i wonder? The mid frequencies in my opinion are a little dominant for the style but thats what we had to work with. It was a rock bass and wasnt very warm in general. I might need to roll out a bit of the mids. The bass frequencies on the other hand i think are fine. This is one of the biggest things that ive noticed about country and rock is the extremely deep bass. Infact on many professional record country albums that i put in the car seem almost too deep. It rumbles my subs. Definately louder than rock. Im not really sure why country people like such deep bass but they do.

I love using delays.

Kick in reference to bass or mid frequencies? In the bass frequencies i think its ok because i think that needs to be in reference to the bass guitar, which it i balanced with. I thought i did a pretty good job on balancing the mids to balance with the snare. And i definately disagree in the volume of the snare. Another difference between rock and country. Snare is normally mixed quite back in the mix comparitively. Driving and punchy, but not out in front.

Yah the drums arnt as tight as they should be in general. The song writer is new to the area and all the musicians were highered for this production. He had kind of a newb studio drummer to come in to do the drumming. 98% of this production was rehearsed the minute of recording. The guitar player was someone i recommended who is an excellent studio guitar player that i have used many times. But that was after we started the project.

With the ride panning. Well it is on the farthers end of the drum set. It might be a good idea to narrow the spread in general and bring the ride mic in a little bit. But i try and keep rythm stuff on the outer sides and melody in the middle. But ill have to listen to it in general. maybe its just too loud to begin with.

But thanks for taking a listen to the mix. I am relatively new to country mixing which is why i wanted to post this up in the first place. But i have built this mix upon country references.

And most of all, the client is absolutely loving the recording. Which is why it got more serious half way through production.

Thanks again.

Danny
 
darnold said:
But i try and keep rythm stuff on the outer sides and melody in the middle. But ill have to listen to it in general. maybe its just too loud to begin with.
Click to expand...

Weird. I do exactly the opposite!

Not saying you're wrong... there is no right way to do it.
 
I just feel the rythm on the outside keeps the stereo space balanced. When there are too many things going on that stop and arnt constant it makes it feel all over the place. I guess that can be good alot of the time. But since the vocals arnt part of the rythm and they are in the center i try and keep similiar things closer to it in a way. I guess it kind of depends.

With the ride i guess its different because its not constant so it might be a good idea to pull it a little closer to the middle.

Mainly with acoustic rythm guitars that are constant, i double and pan hard left and right. Then you always have the space feel for the right, left, and center. Then everything else kind of goes around the space.

Anyway. I burnt the song and tried it in my car right after i read your post. I hadnt listened to this mix yet. I thought it sounded good except the snare was a little to dry. And actually i thought the bass was too mid heavy and not deep enough, and actually too quiet compared to the other mixes i had done. Its just a really dry bass which might be why it seems a little loud.

Anyway. More critique would be great. Even if i disagree with things it still makes me double check them and make sure they are the way i want them.

Danny
 
I do so much rock/indie/punk music that I try to center percussion to create an image of power, and move the melodic stuff to the outsides because those are usually "frills" to the meat of the song. Vocal is centered of course though.

Your approach definately works for something that isn't as thrashy. Next time I do a lighter song I will do what you do for variation.

Very cool. :)
 
Oh i see how that would work.

Actually i see it kind of the same way with punk music but i see the thick distorted guitars are more of the constant rythm. Although its definately not as rythmic as the drums of course, panning the rythm and lead guitar feels out the entire space of the stereo field and keeps it balance with its constancy.

But anything solo goes a little in between to fill its own space.

I think thats more of the way i look at it. I just dont like the mix feeling like its shrinking into the center too much. Keeping something on the edges that is constant makes it feel like the outer edges are still being out. I just happen to find that with the more rythmic stuff in soft music. Sometimes i will find it in percussion. Like putting the constant rythmic percussion like egg shakers and stuff more on the outside. Doesnt have to be loud and in front, just needs to be there.

Danny
 
I don't know what Cloneboy's beef with this song is... it sounds just like every other country song i've heard on the radio... In a good way.
 
deepwater - With this particular song i used the Microtech Gefell UM70. Im actually not sure on the preamp because it was a while ago. But my guess is it was through the Old School Audios MPC-L (could have been A styles though) that i was borrowing from Dudley for a couple of months. But it very easily could have been the Soundcraft Ghost pres too but im pretty sure the OSA's were used for most of the project. The UM70 worked really well for this song because its alot different than the 2 other songs that were recorded. This is a very soft, girly type vocal. The other ones, which i might be able to post later are a little more rougher. They are still country but much different. With this i used the AT4050s through the ghost pres. Infact now that i think about it, the ghost pres may have been used with the UM70 to keep consistancy. The AT4050s dont work with the OSAs for some very odd reason. I wanted to keep generally the same characteristics with the songs, just wanted a little more beef and bite to the stronger ones. Anyway its kind of hard to remember.

Acoustic guitars were all done with the OSA MPC-A style with Neumann KM184s. Bass was done with...Countryman Type 85 DI i think (its weird how your memory starts to fail when your doing sessions alot. it used to be so easy to remember this stuff).

Drums -

Kick - Sennheiser e602
Snare Top - Shure SM57
Snare Bottom - AT4050
Hi Hat - Neumann KM184
Hi Tom - Sennheiser e604
Floor Tom - Sennheiser MD421
Overheads - AKG C414 EBs
Ride - Neumann KM184

Pretty sure that was the setup. I wouldnt have prefered the AT4050s as overheads on this with a 414 on the bottom snare. But i wanted to use the two OSA MPC-A pres on the overheads. And like mentioned above they are incompatible with the AT4050s so i had to switch them around.

Electric guitar was done with two MD421s. Worked rather well and worked over the Royer in the situation. I cant remember the guitar amp he was using, but it was beautiful. Its very well known but for some reason im drawing a blank.

Anyway thats about it. Trying to recall everything i can think of about the project. Everything is done in such a fast manner i dont really take great mental notes. Its just they come in and want the acoustic guitar mic'd and i go do it.



hybridsound - Hey thanks for the compliments. I dont think cloneboy is really giving beef. I asked people to be critical about it and to say what first stood out in the mix. If it bugs one person theres a good chance its going to bug someone else. And then we were discussing a few of my mixing styles and comparing. But i guess someone skimming through might perceive it as being a bit beefy about it. But thanks for the compliments. Anything you hear that could use a little bit of adjustment?

Thanks everyone.

Danny
 
Hmm.

Didnt get as much critique as i expected.

Oh well ill try and post something people are more interested in later.

Danny
 
Just listened to the song on my shit ass little computer speakers, but I am fairly familiar with them. All in all not bad. The drummer has some timing issues, but there isn't a lot you can do with that right now. I liked the vocal, but felt it might be able to use a little more power through a little more warmth. Possibly a pass through a distressor would help that out.

Is there two acoustic guitar tracks? The acoustic seemd to have this really unnatural width to me. it almost sounds like it was digitally doubled with one signal offset. It just felt like every note was kind of ping ponging.

I liked the way the electrics and the bass sounded but thought they both might benefit from a little more HF energy. Throw them on a buss and maybe hit them with the Pultec form your UAD. Try an 8k boost of about 3 with master Q at about 4. Maybe even 10k. I know that sounds a little high, but I know that pultec:D

Individually I thought the drum sounds were pretty nice (tone wise). The problem I had with the drums were that they sounded too individual and not as much like a whole kit to me. Maybe drop the kick a bit and add a little bit more click to it, and definately narrow the width of the kit through panning. Things sounded too isolated. This does sound like a song where the OH's and snare should kind of drive it with the vocal. Also, thins song seems critical to get that right drum verb on. Especially on the snare and toms.

I think that getting the kit right with a little extra "presence" on the electrics and bass can really breathe new life and a lot more energy and power into this song. It seems like a good song that has maybe been a little "overworked" in ways that have made it too smooth and as a result lost too much emotion. I would bet that the drummer laid back a bit too much and the tracks could have benefitted from a little more dynamic and emotion in his part, but I can also see how many people would think the opposite and want to lay back on it. It's all really opinion and speculation.

You really should bring her down my way next time she comes in:D This would be a fun one to produce is my bet. I really like the way the electric guitar parts were written. It seems to be hard these days to find a rhythm player who is happy to be just that and not always overplay. I would actually consider doing the drum parts for her myself. I am not that technically inclined on a kit, but her stuff seems to really need tempo and dynamics which are the two things that I do actually do well on drums:D
 
Thanks Xstatic. Glad you took the time to go into some depth on the song. Definately advice i need to try.

I have had two people say the vocal needs more power so i might want to try it out. Ive been running the vocal as neutral as possible to keep it soft an natural. I think even pushing it through the 1176 will give it what it needs. Which i did at first. But i took it off because i felt it made them a little too beefy. Guess ill try it again and be a little more subtle on it.

The acoustic guitar is doubled in playing. I like doing that for some reason. I mainly just try to keep things out of the center of the mix and nothing constant was going to be on the other side to balance it very well. I think the problem is he didnt strum exactly the same on the second track.

Ill try that with the electrics. I actually have a high cut at around 800Hz on the bass which is maybe why you are feeling that way. I really did not like the frequencies above there for this song. The bass player was playing a very rock style bass and those frequencies are just too much. And when i reference to other country stuff in the style, the bass is just an extreme round low bottom sound. Almost nothing but bass. But ill expirement and see what else i can do with it.

Heh i think i do need to watch out for the stereo width on the drums. I really like to make drums very wide for some reason. I almost try and create the illusion that your sitting infront of the drumset. Guess it is a little uncalled for in this type of music. Ill lessen the panning on it. The verb has been very difficult to get right on the drums. Right now i feel like theres not enough, but when i try and put more on it feels like too much.

What kind of happened with the song is the song writer got alot more than he was expecting. He just wanted to get his music recorded in general. He highered musicians that were just so so at first. Mainly the drummer. I recommended a studio drummer that would have been great for the job but he wasnt thinking of it that seriously at the time. The drummer was serious rock drummer and likes technical stuff and i think he got really bored with this country stuff. It doesnt necessarily need to be more technical on the drumming end but it just isnt that tight and emotional.

When the writer saw what it was becoming and compared it to recordings he had done up in the Seattle region he decided he wanted to do it more seriously and do something more with it. So i got a guitar buddy to come play on the spot and improvise as a studio guitarist. He is a solid player, but since nothing was ultimately solid with the rythm i think it was a little difficult for him to get them the same. The bass player was kind of the same situation as the guitarist. There was plenty of other bass players who i would have prefered to come in for the style of music.

Then the vocalist came flew down and spent a day in the studio. She was great and had alot of studio experience and she really liked my studio. She was a professional with lawers and the whole junk. I think this was just kind of a side project for her. But she wants to come down and do her own work with me soon.

So basically this was only a half serious project. It was alot of fun to work with. The writer is a fun guy to work with. But i think this project, being only 3 songs, is kind of the demo to the real thing. Im sure next time he will make sure everything is a little more serious. I did discuss with him going down to your studio and he liked the idea. I bet you can line up some great instrumentalists for the project down there. Im sure it will be much more planned out also.

Anyway. Thanks for the listen again. Ill put the final up when its finished. It should be around the end of this month. Hes backed up with his studio finances right now so its kind of on hold right now.

Danny
 
Even sitting in front of a kit the image isn't that wide. Maybe if you were sitting on the kick drum facing the drummer:D
 
Hahaha.

Alright its over exagerated. I get the point :D. Ill go fix it i promise!!! :eek:

Danny
 
Great job on the recording, Danny. She's pretty talented, too.
 
Just a quick disclaimer...... I am pretty sure that Danny already knows this. But, for the rest out there reading my previous post, here it is...

I commented a lot on the song, but everything was my opinion and purely that. All the suggestions are things that I would have done. Also, I know Danny personally and was actually asked for input on the song. I don't think it was bad, and actually my suggestions weren't even major things, just little things that I think will add up to something big in the end. None of my comment was meant to be personal, and hopefully Danny (or anyone else fot that matter) took it as any sort of personal attack.

Normally I would not put a post up like this, but I got a couple of emails from people who took my post as if it wre an attack, or just plain being an asshole. I re-read my post and I still don't see it that way. However, I did go into a little detail and made several suggestions so I guess that someone could construe that I was being overly harsh. Like I said, I know Danny personally, and I don't think that he thinks that about it. In the end I guess that is all that matters, but I thought I would at least attempt to clear things up a bit to keep my inbox emptier:D
 
Yo. I wasnt offended at all. I was actually asking for Xstatics critical opinion on it and everyone elses. Every little thing helps and thers always room for improvement. So yah i didnt take any of it as harsh.

Thanks Xstatic for caring anyway. And thanks everyone else for caring too and standing up for me.

The main thing is i try and look for different perspectives that i might have missed. Obviously since i mixed it like this, this is the way i perceive and already know that it is. When there is a neutral fresh ear on the mix, people notice things that i wouldnt have noticed myself. Makes me look at things a little different.

I never would have thought to myself that the drums were too wide. It hadnt even crossed my mind to think that. Now i can at least take a look at it and make sure its what i really want, whether i agree or disagree with it or not. And the replies that i did that seemed more like defense was me just giving my perspective on the mix. That way someone else might perspective mixing ideas too.

Anyway, all in all with all this, i try not to take any of it too personally or too seriously. Even if someone came out and said mix absolutely sucked and that i should quit i wouldnt even care. As long as my client likes it and is in agreeance with it then im still in good business. Even if i think it sounds like crap but he likes it, then im still good. And his influence might have been partially added to the sound of this mix also. But now i can show him a few options. He may or may not like them but he might like them better.

Thanks again. Everyones input is appreciated.

Danny
 
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