Considering Sonar...beginner, need basic questions answered

  • Thread starter Thread starter f. lai
  • Start date Start date
F

f. lai

New member
Hi all. I'm looking to move to Sonar. I'd like to potentially use Win XP, but may wait a little longer until more audio cards support it. I have some basic questions:

Sonar is an editor that allows you to record MIDI, digital, and analogue signals? Is this correct?

If I get a soundcard like the Aardvark Q 10 (assuming they ever upgrade to XP), I won't need an outboard mixer b/c all the inputs, outputs I'll need will be included including pre-amps. Correct?

Now- the real ignorance begins...

I'm new to MIDI as well. I understand that MIDI is basically a "code" that transmits musical information, but what is the difference between recording an instrument to the computer without using MIDI, and recording an instrument to the computer using MIDI (let's say it's the same keyboard that has both possibilites)?

thanks,
Francis
 
Sonar is an editor that allows you to record MIDI, digital, and analogue signals? Is this correct?
Click to expand...

Well, not quite... the analog signals have to be digitized befor they can be recorded.

If I get a soundcard like the Aardvark Q 10 (assuming they ever upgrade to XP), I won't need an outboard mixer b/c all the inputs, outputs I'll need will be included including pre-amps. Correct?
Click to expand...

Well, there are other reasons for having a mixer... but basically yeah, you should be able to get by like that.

I'm new to MIDI as well. I understand that MIDI is basically a "code" that transmits musical information, but what is the difference between recording an instrument to the computer without using MIDI, and recording an instrument to the computer using MIDI (let's say it's the same keyboard that has both possibilites)?
Click to expand...

You can think of MIDI as like a modern digital equivalent of a player piano. The recorded MIDI sequence is analogous to the player piano roll. Now, there's no sound recorded on that roll -- you can't put it up to your ear and hear anything. It's a way of recording which notes were hit and when. When you play it back, a mechanism causes the piano keys to get physically struck much like they were struck in the original performance. It's a recording of what it took to make the piano make that sound, not of the actual sound the piano made.


MIDI messages are just things like the bumps on the player piano roll -- which notes got hit, when, and how hard. Of course, the modern version doesn't cause physical piano keys to strike strings, they trigger electronic sound sources instead (though there aredevices to convert MIDI interfaces into physical motion of piano keys too). The sound source can be different. The recorded notes can also be readily manipulated after recording, too, like a word processor does with words.

So that's the difference -- recording information about the performance that lets you reconstruct it (MIDI), or recording the sound waves created by the performance (audio).
 
So does the MIDI information record the actual playing sound of the module you use? I am confused as to how particular instruments implementing MIDI get their sound recorded. Does this make sense? If you use an analogue instrument that has MIDI, and record using MIDI, then how does the computer record the actual sounds of the instrument and not just the notes?
 
How would you digitize analogue, and is there any sound quality loss?
 
God, my advice about midi is forget it, unless you're into notation or game music. I'd just as soon not have it on my software. I know this doesn't answer your question, it's just my opinion. You say you're moving up to Sonar. What software have you been using? In my opinion, if you have reasonably good software, a good audio interface, mic(s) and preamp you've got everything you need. Oh, yes! Don't forget a Pod.
 
MIDI recording just records pure data, and when you play it back it triggers the sounds in your module again. It is extremely useful when writing sequenced or complex music, because the performance is separate from the sounds.

The amount of signal loss in an analogue recording can be fairly imperceptable based on the quality of your hardware and recording techniques.
 
So does the MIDI information record the actual playing sound of the module you use?
Click to expand...

No--

MIDI information records what notes you hit, when you hit them, how long you hit them; the notes are assigned to a channel and that channel is assigned to a particlular sound program on the module. The module responds to the messages by playing the sounds it is being directed to by the MIDI messages.

I am confused as to how particular instruments implementing MIDI get their sound recorded. Does this make sense? If you use an analogue instrument that has MIDI, and record using MIDI, then how does the computer record the actual sounds of the instrument and not just the notes?
Click to expand...

The only way the computer or any recording device can record the actual sound of the instrument is to plug the instrument's audio outputs into it. When you record MIDI information, you don't record the sound. At some point (when it's time to mix down to a stereo CD or whatever), you have to record the actual sound. To do this, you record the synth's audio output to an audio track while it's responding to the MIDI messages you recorded earlier.

How would you digitize analogue, and is there any sound quality loss?
Click to expand...
Analog signals are digitized by devices called analog-to-digital converters. They take instantaneous "snapshot" measurements of the analog waveform using some number of bits to represent the instantaneous amplitude (16 bits per sample for CD audio -- this is called the resolution of the digitized audio), and they do it many many times per millisecond to approximate the waveform over time (44,100 snapshot measurements per second for CD audio -- this is called the sampling rate of the digitized audio). And of course there is sound quality loss, any sampling is inherently imperfect -- no matter how short the time is between individual samples, there is always some time As heinz said, this loss is pretty imperceptible to most people. The loss is certainly less than is lost in traditional analog methods of recording -- though there are many that would argue this point...
 
So...

Recording in MIDI is just data, and to record from that, you must then plug in the hardware (in this case- that is MIDI oriented and originally recorded with) and it will re-play what you have played through the synth or keyboard and record it at that point. Do I have it yet?

Also, could you use one MIDI instrument, and play the data through another instrument?

Thanks to all, you've been a great help so far for an ignorant oldtimer like myself.
 
Thanks for that A1Mixman. I've bookmarked it for future reference.

BTW Francis, you don't need an external midi device to record midi. In Sonar there is a program called Virtual Piano which allows you to play using your qwerty keyboard. Okay, so its not efficient, but it works. You can then load Sonar with soundfonts that will play whatever instruments you choose. And you can get zillions of s/fonts for free on the www.

I am buying a mixer because I need to mix a number of audio inputs to my system. And I need to sub-mix certain inputs like multiple vocalist and mult-drum mics.

Hope this helps.
 
f.lai, the last few explanations of midi have been spot on. I actually record midi drums with my mouse in piano roll view so I can have something of a guide track to record guitar over. I also use midi as a way to sync Sonar with external recorders and such as it will send and recive timecode information (sorry if this is confusing). Another good thing about midi is that you can fix mistakes. As stated before midi records EVENTS. What note (or notes) did you play, when did you play them, duration, velocity(how hard you hit the keyboard). You could suck at piano, record (midi, not audio) playing through a keyboard capable of sending midi, then fix your mistakes, your timing, even change the patch. For example, you just recorded midi of something you thought would sound good as a piano. But you changed your mind and decided it would sound better as a rock organ. This is easy to do.

Sonar: I like it a lot as I am used to Cakewalk's paradigms. It is a lot of program. Go to www.cakewalk.com. You may find Home Studio2002 is enough for you. Or, if you decide you don't want midi, Guitar Studio. If you find you have to have all the features of Sonar, you could upgrade.

I do not have a Q10, but there are people on this board having problems with it as there are no WDM drivers yet from Aardvark (important for getting the most out of Sonar). If you don't need 8-10 inputs, there are other options and cheaper soundcards.

Preamps: The Maudio Audio Buddy is a good low budget mic pre with 2 channels for $79.

Sorry for the long winded response

:cool:
 
Chuck's post was spot on, I agree with everything he says. I use Home Studio 2002 (sometimes referred to as Sonar Lite) cos it was/is sufficient for my purposes. Later on I may go to full blown Sonar but until then, HS2002 is enough for me. I use mainly audio: guitar, lead, rythm, bass and midi for drums and incidental sounds using Virtual piano or a friends very cheesy Casio keyboard with midi I/O capability.

I love the CW products (did I really say that?!?), I started off with Guitar Studio demo, to CW demo, cakewalk Express 8.0 and then to HS2002.

And the Audigy sound card is enough for most people, with full soundfont support.

So do your homework and most important of all.......make music:cool:
 
Ok, I'm pretty new to MIDI but this is the way I handle MIDI. Basically, I use MIDI to trigger a drum unit. It can remain in that form until you've decided how you want the drums to sound. I then add other instruments like real guitar or bass. When satisfied with your drum machine sounds, record the MIDI to an audio track to finalize for mixdown for a CD burn. The big problem with MIDI is that it only sounds as good as the card that's playing the MIDI (or the output device). By recording to an audio track, it will not sound any different than the way you hear it. Of course, you need to mute the MIDI track avter you have an audio track recorded from the MIDI track.
 
I convert Midi to digital through the "Stereo Mixer" input of the software mixer that came with the sound card. This uses the sound card's Midi playback, and the output goes into the analog recording input. However I believe Sonar (maybe XL only) uses soft synths that decode the Midi signals into sounds that it can simultaneously (ignoring latency etc) convert to digital audio. So I don't think you *need* a hardware Midi player or sound card in your PC to play Midi or convert to digital audio with Sonar.
 
AlChuck and A1MixerMan are the kings of midi in this forum.

Midi is just an instruction set, it contains no music sounds itself. So you can use soundfonts for example to use in conjunction with your midi (this can be from your keyboard, midi controler or from your keyboard or a software like Virtual Piano, that is included in s/blaster soundcard packages). This means you can use the millions of soundfonts out there in cyber space to reproduce a phenomenal amount of sounds.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top