Confused about mixer outputs

[masternk]

I am not able to get a staright answer from the folks at those crowded music stores on this simple question. So someone please help me!

Assume I want to simultaneously record multiple tracks, 4-6.

-Can any of the mixers like Mackie 1202/1404 or Yamaha 12/4 or Behringer 2004A or Alesis 24 output multiple channels to a multitrack recorder to do this simultaneous recording?
-If so will I be able to control each channel separately for level, EQ etc?
-Will I be able to mix(Bus?) only selected no. of channels, say 1,3 and 4, and not mix other channels, say 2&5, and send total of 3 outputs to a multitrack recorder?
-If answer to above questions on these mixers is no, is expensive digital multitrackers are the only option?

Thanks again!

 

[Track Rat]

I'll give you a for instance useing the Mackie 1604. It's a four buss mixer and it also has channel inserts that can be utilized as direct channel outputs.
First, using the individual channel inserts as direct outs. All 16 channels on this particular mixer are equiped with a channel insert which is an input/output designed to do a couple of different things. Primarily, this is where you'd "insert" something like a compressor on a single channel. The insert interupts the circuit right after the gain controll so you can send signal to a device and it's returned through the same jack back into the channel strip where it proceeds to the EQ/fader section of the channel. The insert also doubles as a direct output. If you plug in a patchcord to the insert only to the first "click", what you're doing is tapping off some signal from just the one channel that can be fed to something like a multi track recorder. Very cool, huh?
Next, is the four busses, which is the "4" in the name 1604. The buss or subgroup as it's sometimes refered to is where you can assign a single or multiple mixer channels creating a "subgroup" that can routed to a multi track.
An example of how you'd use this in the real world would be something like this. Say you have an 8 track recorder like an ADAT.
You want to record a band all at the same time.
Mixer channel 1=kick drum mic>insert out to ADAT track 1
Mixer channel 2=Snare mic>insert out to ADAT track 2
Mixer channels 3,4,5 and 6=toms and cymbals mics>assigned to subgroup (buss) 1 out to ADAT track 3
Mixer channel 7=Bass guitar direct into line in on board>insert out to ADAT track 4
Mixer channel 8=Guitar mic on cabinet> insert out to ADAT track 5
etc, etc.
Get it?

 

[masternk]

Track Rat,

OK, I got the bus part of it. Thanks.

But still unclear about the channel inserts and send outs. The 1604 is an expensive mixer I noticed. I was considering getting one of the less expensive mixers I mentioned if they would do the job. Here is what I see on Mackie web site-

Both 1202 and1404 specs say:
2 aux sends with 15dB of extra gain above Unity
2 stereo aux returns w/EFX to Monitor
Extra ALT 3-4 stereo bus for submixes, separate recording, monitor and 'mix minus' feeds


Compared to 1604 spec says:
4 subgroups with left & right assigns and direct outs
16 line inputs, 16 channel inserts
6 aux sends per ch. with 15dB gain above Unity
4 stereo aux returns, 8 direct outs

From this can you tell me on 1202/1404
-how many channels I can send out total?
-how many I can submix and send out like the way you said?

BTW, I saw your website: the links do'nt work?

Tnxz

 

[Track Rat]

Long story on the websight links. It's under construction. Again.
The 1202 will buss as I described. It only has four mic pre's though, and only four channel inserts that could be used as direct outputs accordingly. The 1402 only has six mic pre's and six inserts. If that's enough to meet your needs then you're off to the races. What I described wiil work with any mixer that has subgrouping capability and inserts on the channels with mic pre's, so check out the specs on any mixer you're contemplating picking up. I do know that some of the Behringer mixers (the low end models, but in my humble opinion, they're all low end models) don't have inserts on individual channels.
As far as understanding the concept of inserts as direct outs, there's not too much to grasp. If you plug a mic into channel one one the mixer and find the jack on the back that is labeled "channel one insert" and plug a 1/4" cable into it only to the first "click", you're grabbing some signal only from that mic/channel. Now when you do this the signal you grabbed is only affected by the gain controll of that channel that's located at the top of it's channel strip. The EQ for that channel does NOT affect the signal at the insert point as it's been grabbed befor the EQ part of the circuit. Same with the Fader at the bottom of the channel strip.
This differs from higher end mixers that have dedicated "direct outputs on individual mixer channels, where the output is after the EQ/fader portion of the strip. Am I confusing you even more?

 

[Garak]

Go download the pdf manuals for the mixers in question. They should have a nice block diagram showing the signel flow inside the mixer.

You can use that to trace a signel through the board to any one of the outputs. Usually when recording you want to get the shortest path to your recorded as you can. In most mixers as you trace the signel from the input it will go into the preamp and then through the insert. So that would be the best place to get the signel from. But it you want to use the boards eq's when tracking you have to keep on going through the diagram untill you find an output past the eq. Right after the eq is where its likely to split off to the prefader aux mixes and into the fader. After the fader it will then split off to the post fader aux's and into the routing to the busses starting usually with the pan pot and then into the assign buttons. From the buss's the signel goes into various outputs and such.

 

[PowerCouple]

Mackie VLZ1202PRO

With that, you can track separately 8 tracks. I've done it. If you get it, I'll show you hou...
tracks 1-4 from each insert (first click) tracks 5-6 from alt output 1-2 (you have to mute this channels in the mixer... you can hear them though... tracks 7-8 from Main out.
That's it

Peace.

PC

 

[masternk]

Thnaks to all replies!

That was really a great help from all you guys! Now I really have to try to 'see' what you are talking about...... but your suggestions gave me enough to move on....

I will probably get a Mackie 1202 or 1404 depending on what price I can get from Mars..........they are closing I hear.

 

[Fontcow]

As far as understanding the concept of inserts as direct outs, there's not too much to grasp. If you plug a mic into channel one one the mixer and find the jack on the back that is labeled "channel one insert" and plug a 1/4" cable into it only to the first "click", you're grabbing some signal only from that mic/channel. Now when you do this the signal you grabbed is only affected by the gain controll of that channel that's located at the top of it's channel strip. The EQ for that channel does NOT affect the signal at the insert point as it's been grabbed befor the EQ part of the circuit. Same with the Fader at the bottom of the channel strip.

I have a Mackie 1604VLZ and just got around to having a purpose to use the Inserts (to 2 synced-ADATs) and did a search finding this wonderful information because the Mackie Owner's Manual didn't explain as nicely as this did. Thanks!

The Mackie manual says "Even though channels 1-8 already have DIRECT OUT jacks, INSERT jacks can also be used as channel direct outputs; post-TRIM, pre-LOW CUT, and pre-EQ. Here's three ways to use the INSERT jacks:

MONO PLUG=Direct out with no signal interruption to the master/Insert only to first "click"

MONO PLUG=Direct out with signal interruption to the master/Insert only to second "click"

You say the first "click" is post-TRIM, pre-LOW CUT, pre-EQ, mute and faders, so what exactly does the second "click" do then? I'd test it out but I have the mixer and a buddy has the ADATs and I'm just doing my pre-session homework trying to figure out ahead of time the best way to hook these ADATs up from my Mackie.

P.S. If this 2 synced ADAT session goes well and I'm pleased with the results, I'm ponying up for an Alesis ADAT HD24 in the next month!!

 

[TexRoadkill]

MONO PLUG=Direct out with no signal interruption to the master/Insert only to first "click"

MONO PLUG=Direct out with signal interruption to the master/Insert only to second "click"

You say the first "click" is post-TRIM, pre-LOW CUT, pre-EQ, mute and faders, so what exactly does the second "click" do then? I'd test it out but I have the mixer and a buddy has the ADATs and I'm just doing my pre-session homework trying to figure out ahead of time the best way to hook these ADATs up from my Mackie.

P.S. If this 2 synced ADAT session goes well and I'm pleased with the results, I'm ponying up for an Alesis ADAT HD24 in the next month!!

They are both PRE EQ and FADER. The difference is that the first click will NOT interrupt the signal through the board. You need the signal to continue through the board if you actually want to monitor (hear) the signal.

Going to the second clik DOES interupt the signal and you will no longer be able to monitor the signal unless you return it back into the mixer through another input.

This is where the insert gets really cool. If you use a Balanced to Dual Unbalanced (Stereo to dual mono) cable and plug the balanced end into the insert the two unbalanced lines are now a send and return for using with outboard compressors or EQ's. The balanced jack will go all the way to the second click and cut off the signal but then the signal goes out the cable into the processor and is returned back on that same channel so you can route it through the rest of the board. This is more common for live use or during mixing.