Computer CDRW vs Outboard

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Ok I've finally got my comp on Saturday and i need to decide now on the soundcard. My dilemma is that i want to produce professional audio.

1)
Is it possible to purchase an nuendo 96/52, hook up an outboard ad/da converter such as the apogee ad800 and mix digital in the comp. at pro quality?

2)
Do I master in the comp?

3)
When I'm ready to record is the comp - CDRW drive reliable enough to maintain this quality or should i go back out and then to an outboard CDRW?


I know 26 channels of simultaneous recording is ridiculous right now, but i'm trying to avoid re-purchasing things. My goal is pro quality home recording.


My comp is an Intel 1ghz, 40 gig hdd 7200rpm, haven't decided on the cdrw yet because of the quality factor, 256 sdram (probably going to get another for 512mb), soundcard will probably be nuendo, matrox 550 32mb dual proc video. Dedicated to music only!


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Computer CRWs are much more versatile than stand-alones. They can record data as well as music. They do not lose sound quality through SPIDIF connections. They have no problems using cheaper media that do not incorporate a copyright fee. They can record at many times playback speed (i think 36X now). They are much cheaper.

I don't know of any advantages that stand alone units have other than that they do not require a computer to operate.
 
Ditto with bdemenil. The only reason I can see buying an external is if you are either going to do remote live recording, or if you like to mix through a mixer to an external device (rather than internally in the computer via software).
 
Ok so if i get this right, if i buy a ad/da such as the apogee ad8000 and a nuendo card an analog mixer my set-up would be thus:

analog instruments to mixer analog outs to apogee ad8000 digital out to nuendo at 110db(i think it's db) to comp(mix/master all digital still maintaining the 110 and burn at 110). Analog at playback. If i monitor I know I have outs to hook to the apogee and out to my monitor. Correct?

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p.s
If I'm right that's as professional as I need. Just worried about pro sound.
 
>I don't know of any advantages that stand alone units have other than that they do not require a computer to operate.

There are many. But I'll preface my rant with a question.

Have you ever owned a good standalone CD-burner?

And a statement:

The ability to store PC data in a format recognizable by any PC with a CD-ROM is reason enough to own a PC-based burner.

Pros, for owning a standalone burner:

1) No PC required to produce audio CDs.
2) Much more robust than any computer based system. I can remember only two coasters produced by my TASCAM CDRW-5000. I'm convinced both were MY fault, although I haven't figured out why in that ONE case. :)
This out of hundreds of burns over a few years.
3) It's nice to have an extra stereo mixdown medium capable of outputting a digital copy of the recording. Sure- an MD, DAT or another PC would fill this bill but they're not as cheap (PC) or the media is not as cheap (MD/DAT/ADAT).
4) More portable than ANY PC-based system.

Cons:

1) The good ones are pricey. The cheaper ones make compromises that compromise what you're doing this FOR!

2) You need a data CD burner anyway, and all of those will burn audio CDs, usually much faster than any standalone.

3) Data transfer is way too slow. Usually 1x.

4) A PC-based burner can burn multi-session CD's or video CDs.


Oh- and:

>They do not lose sound quality through SPIDIF connections

What quality have you been losing due to your digital transfers?

Have you even tried to quantify this?
 
They do not lose sound quality through SPIDIF connections What quality have you been losing due to your digital transfers? Have you even tried to quantify this?
Click to expand...

I believe that SPIDIF connections introduce some jitter and error into the signal - they do not tranfer a perfect replica. I doubt if they could be used to tranfer data rather than audio. The longer the connection, the more pronounced the effect.

I noticed strange little spikes in my waveforms (only visible at extreme magnification) after transfering some audio through SPIDIF. I don't know for sure if the SPIDIF did it, but it is what I suspect.

I'm not saying SPIDIF is bad. It just isn't the absolute best.
 
When you say spidif are you referring to the printer like cable attached to the mobo and to the cdrw drive inside the comp?
Or is this the spdif outside the board from soundcard?
Also in defense of the comp. cdrws they are now coming equipped with digital in an outs (last I checked).
Quality is what I'm worried about, but apparently i read somewhere that you can't lose sound quality in the digital domain(is this a myth)? If I have to buy outboard it's ok. I just don't want to lose the quality I recieve from the ad/da converter.

Specs
 
SPIDIF refers to the RCA type connectors on the back of the CD drive - not the IDE or SCSI ribbon which connects PC CD drives to the motherboard. SPIDIF is a consumer grade digital transfer medium. It is OK for short length transfers. As data traveling through spidif is never leaving the digital domain, it should be more or less the same coming out as going in, except that, as I mentioned, it is susceptible to interference and jitter.

... (a little later) OK, I just did some research. It seems that although both SPDIF and AES/EBU are susceptible to large amounts of jitter, that doesn't matter unless the device on the receiving end is actually using the clock information from the incoming signal. In digital to digital transfers this mostly isn't the case, so the jitter is irrelevant. Mostly where it matter is when the signal is being outputted to a DA converter. Even then, most good DA converters have jitter correcting circuitry. So you should be OK transferring your data with SPIDIF, but you may want to consider something else for inputting to your DA converter. The jitter problem can be fixed almost entirely with the use of an external clock.

... The other problem that can crop up in a SPIDIF transfer is data error - i.e. actual corruption of audio data as opposed to clock data. This shouldn't be so bad as long as the SPIDIF run is short, and the cable is good quality. Still, an IDE or SCSI transfer is sure to be much less prone to error, so I'll maintain that you are better off using a PC CDR - There are plenty of very good ones out there - Plextor for example.

However, as you are using stand alone converters, you would have to feed the data into the computer somehow. For this you would probably need to use SPIDIF or AES/EBU - so you are stuck with it anyway.

A short explanation on how SPIDIF and AES/EBU work :

They carry both audio data, and clock information in the same data stream. The clock information is highly susceptible to distortion. This can be remedied by using an additional connection(wordclock) to transfer clock info. SPIDIF and AES/EBU are very similar. The main difference in quality is that AES/EBU is balanced, and uses higher signal strength, and so is less susceptible to interference.

Here are some links :

http://www.mtsu.edu/~dsmitche/rim420/materials/Interface.html

http://www.digido.com/jitterletters.html
 
Ok there seems to be no problem i would have then for audio transfer. If I purchase a Pc CDR then the ide or scsi ribbon transfers with minimal data lost. The transfer to the computer isn't what concerned me. It was the transfer of the finished product to cd. The outboard problem isn't a big issue right now and as you said it is easily overcome.

...Transfer to comp is probably gonna be adat lightpipe.

Specs
 
This is getting way to complicated and in depth...

Dr Stawl listed the Pro and Cons, and I agree with him....

Make your desicion based on that...


I have both, and I don't HEAR a difference sound-wise between them, but I have never had a coaster from my Tascam Stand alone... I have however had a few from my Yamaha Pc Burner...

Pc burner,, great but not a rock that will last forever....

Stand alone,, expensive, but will probably outlive me....


Don't be too concerned with all the crap about spidf..... mine works fine, and it's a 6 foot extention.. I hear NO difference, between it and my pc...

I don't hear any difference between my friends hhb burner and mine....
 
I still have my HP burner from 3 years ago. It works as well as the day I bought it. The only time my burner has screwed up is when doing an on the fly copy of another CD from my other cd drive - the error occurs because when the other CD drive slows down - say the Cd being copied is skipping - and can't keep up with the pace of the burner. Almost all PC burners on the market today have burn-proof technology which alows them to idle if the data stream dries up. This means no more coasters.

Also, as has allready been pointed out, for less than $100 you can get a PC burner which can record at 24X - that means that if you are recording an hour of music, it will take about 3 minutes. And then you can also record data. Don't waste your money on a stand-alone.
 
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