Compressor or Limiter??

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rockabilly1955

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Can somebody explain the difference between the two?? for example, I've used the W1 limiter plugin (supposed to be a L2 clone??) and it does a very comparable job in getting a songs apparent loudness up to that of a song that has been totally squashed with compression. The difference i see is that with the limiter, the the mix retains its dynamic range and all the peaks and valleys in the waveform, though numbers wise, its still lower than a squashed song, but sounds just as loud. Anybody have any advice in using these two?? which is better for final mixes?? should they be used together?? and why is that with the limiter the lower you set the threshold the louder it sounds?? yup....i'm still a newbie :)
 
rockabilly1955 said:
Can somebody explain the difference between the two?? for example, I've used the W1 limiter plugin (supposed to be a L2 clone??) and it does a very comparable job in getting a songs apparent loudness up to that of a song that has been totally squashed with compression. The difference i see is that with the limiter, the the mix retains its dynamic range and all the peaks and valleys in the waveform, though numbers wise, its still lower than a squashed song, but sounds just as loud. Anybody have any advice in using these two?? which is better for final mixes?? should they be used together?? and why is that with the limiter the lower you set the threshold the louder it sounds?? yup....i'm still a newbie :)
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Well I'm assuming you already know how to use a compressor. A Limiter is essentially an "extreme" compressor, generally with a ratio of something like 10:1. Any signal above the threshold is reduced so much it is essentially cut out.

On the other side, a gate is an "extreme" expander.

The Wikipedia post probably says something similar, but goes into more details.
 
I like that W1 limiter, by the way. The best freeware L1 style limiter I've tried. And it is the L1 it is emulating, not the L2.

In a nutshell, a compressor brings up the lows and brings down the highs, "squeezing" the dynamic range on both sides. A limiter raises the entire volume without squeezing, then lops off the peaks that are over the threshold.

That's a very simplified description! :eek:
 
A limiter is a compressor with a high ratio and extremely fast attack and release times.

The difference i see is that with the limiter, the the mix retains its dynamic range and all the peaks and valleys in the waveform
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This is not true. A limiter isn't as 'spongey' as a compressor, but the only way to bring up the apparent loudness is to lower the dynamic range.

Because of the slower attack and release speeds of normal compressors, they tend to ride the volume of a track.

With a limiter, because of the fast attack and release speed, it only affects the signal above the threshold(by stopping it cold).

Compressors and limiters do the exact same thing in just a slightly different way for a different purpose.
 
good info. Thanks all. Is there any typical settings on a limiter for boosting a final mix?? ceiling is at 0, but what about the threshold and release times?? :confused:
 
The threshold and release times will depend entirely on the signal you are limiting. Generally, you would set the threshold so it only affects the transients. The release time you need to play with and see what sounds better in your case. It will be different for every project and possibly every song you are limiting.
 
got it. I usually try to have my mixes around -15rms and peak rms of around -8 or so. I do 1950's rockabilly and some psychobilly type stuff
 
I personally set the ceiling at -.3 just to be safe. My engineer tends to set it at -.1. I think you are risking distorting on playback if you set the ceiling to "0" and then hit it. It depends on the playback machine, but it can distort.
 
MessianicDreams said:
try like 50 or 100:1
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I think 10:1 is pretty limiting, certainly anyting higher would also be limiting as well, that goes without saying.

Maybe we should start a poll thread. "At what Ratio do you consider compressing to stop and limiting to begin?"

Or maybe we should just call it Infinity:1?
 
i vote 10:1! with 11:1 being very limiting. :D

attack and release don't have anything to do with compression verses limiting as far as i know. it's strictly a function of ratio. i limit with very slow attack on nearly every vocal tracking session. when i do 2bus limit...same thang...almost as a rule...

could be wrong...i'm open to a lesson!

Mike
 
bigtoe said:
i vote 10:1! with 11:1 being very limiting. :D

attack and release don't have anything to do with compression verses limiting as far as i know. it's strictly a function of ratio. i limit with very slow attack on nearly every vocal tracking session. when i do 2bus limit...same thang...almost as a rule...

could be wrong...i'm open to a lesson!

Mike
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If you are strapping a limiter across the mix to knock down the transients, a slow attack time won't do you any good. Mastering limiters have lightning fast attack times so nothing sneaks through. That's how the limiter is able to beat back all the peaks and give you a mix that sits at -9dbfs rms. A limiter with a slow atack time will not do this.
 
Now that we've established that LIMITING is extreme compressing at high ratios (God this must be an FAQ somewhere!), it really sounds like you are talking about PEAK limiting; a special type of limiting that clips off the very peaks of the signal.

When you use these L1, L2, L3 type plug-ins for digital loudness maximizing, you are peak-limiting in a very squashy, digital way which is very unmusical and adds digital clipping and distortion artifacts.

This is fine if you are The Raconteurs, but since your handle is "Rockabilly 1955", I'm guessing you might want something a little more analog, organic, and natural-sounding. Vintage , maybe? Yes, 'billy, there IS an analog peak-limiter/loudness maxxer out there, made by the famous Pedulum Audio. I have been using the PL-2 and even when you hit it wicked hard, the peak-limiting is virtually inaudible, and it sounds a gazillion times better than those bad plugs. Very natural. Very analog. Much more Rockabilly.

It's the "DA" Hairstyle, the Girly Tatoo, the standup bass, The 1940's Hot-Rod, the Echoplex tape-slap of peak-limiters. You can probably order it with a flame finish. (No, you can't). Here it is: Pendulum Peak Limiter
 
Farview said:
If you are strapping a limiter across the mix to knock down the transients, a slow attack time won't do you any good. Mastering limiters have lightning fast attack times so nothing sneaks through. That's how the limiter is able to beat back all the peaks and give you a mix that sits at -9dbfs rms. A limiter with a slow atack time will not do this.
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agreed, but you are talking about a specific example of usage of a limiter...a limiter by design can have slow and fast attack times.

like, i don't really like my mix to sit anywhere like that...and i like the transient to get thru... use it for mild glue...when i use it at all . i like something that looks like a credence clearwater revival record on my vu's/leds...a bouncing ball...so i'd never use a limiter like that unless it was requested of me by the guy with the wallet or title, or if the music absolutely required it.

edit - wish i had that pendulum!

Mike
 
bigtoe said:
agreed, but you are talking about a specific example of usage of a limiter...a limiter by design can have slow and fast attack times.
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Since he was specifically talking about the WI (an L1 clone), I was addressing his specific question in that context.

Most limiters will have the capacity to have quicker attack times than most compressors. There is a reason for that.
 
Farview said:
Most limiters will have the capacity to have quicker attack times than most compressors. There is a reason for that.
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Yep. A limiter that lets attack transients through isn't actually "limiting" much, is it? That'd be nothing more than standard compression at high ratio.

And, yes, it is possible to use limiters with slower attack times, i.e. to basically use them as high-compression compressors. But that, by very definition, is not "limiting" so much as it's slow-clamping compression.

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
And, yes, it is possible to use limiters with slower attack times, i.e. to basically use them as high-compression compressors. But that, by very definition, is not "limiting" so much as it's slow-clamping compression.
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i'm way up for figuring this out if you'll show me...i know this is somewhat semantics...but i'm not getting why the definition is just simply...compression <10:1 limiting >/=10:1.

can either of ya make clear for me this distinction? does it have to do with the amount of compression verses amount of signal over the threshold?

by the same regard - i'd suppose you could set up a bunch of 2:1 compressors and take off so much signal that you'd not be compressing so much as slow-clamping limiting? (kinda the idea of the rnc supernice anyway...)

:confused:

Mike
 
It has to do with how much signal is getting past the threshold. With a slow attack time, the transient can jump way past the threshold. This isn't limiting.
 
Farview said:
It has to do with how much signal is getting past the threshold. With a slow attack time, the transient can jump way past the threshold. This isn't limiting.
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Yeah, what Jay said ^^^^^^^^ :)

It may be helpful to actually think of the semantics here. "Limiting" is more or less just what that word suggests, It's setting a limit at the threshold (more or less). This "limit" is imposed in two general ways:

First the fast attack time keeps the initial attack transients in check and limits them to stay near the threshold.

Second the high compression ratio forces the rest of the signal to keep near the threshold level. Think of it like sending a highly-dynamic waveform to the barber shop and giving it a flat-top crew cut, with the hair length all more or less being the height of the threshold.

Using standard compression, OTOH, with high ratios but slow attack times would be like getting a mowhawk with a shaved head :)

G.
 
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