Compression/Expanion Devices - Location in Chain That Works Best?

[bobboyer]

Hi Folks,

This one is a little more than my brain can process for the sake of searching; my apologies in advance. A bit of context: I'm still testing/purchasing for a project studio for primarily full ensemble, live recording of acoustic music. My underlying goals are to use the highest sound quality components I can afford, mixing mint used gear with newer technology. Where there is a choice between sound quality and speed/convenience, I will opt for quality; this is a hobby and the only time I need to work quickly will be when tracking.

My choices so far include a pristine M-50 Tascam mixer, a Teac 3340S, and a nice complement of KEL Audio condenser mics for tracking with an eye towards an analogue front end to a digital mixing system. I'm still contemplating how and when to make the conversion to digital but I'm leaning towards using an Apogee Duet for the interface, even though it makes for more work in getting multiple tracks into the computer.

So while I'm contemplating that issue, I'm testing the various mics and the sound of the desk and deck. The deck is in great shape, biased for one of the new tape formulas that has tons of headroom and the desk is clean for its age. I'm also doing some reading over the holidays with an eye towards filling in the blanks.

The first blank is compression/expansion devices. I'm probably settling in on dbx 266s but I'm wondering about everyone's experience with their location in the recording chain. Would I be better served by using one channel on each of my 8 mic inputs (purchasing 4 units) or could I track completely dry and come back out of the Teac with 2 or 4 tracks of compression/expansion (purchasing only 1 or 2 units) while making the transfer to digital for the mix?

I'd rather get the sound of the mics, mixer and deck up front and not rely on processor power for anything but adjusting levels, eq, reverb, etc... but I can be convinced otherwise if there are good reasons.

Thanks in advance,

Bob

 

[Massive Master]

Just leave the compression out of the input chain. If you're running a Vari-Mu or a 2500 for "flavor" that's one thing - If you're using it for gain reduction, you're tracking too hot. I'd do whatever is possible to keep as little in the input chain as possible.

 

[Supercreep]

Hi Folks,

This one is a little more than my brain can process for the sake of searching; my apologies in advance. A bit of context: I'm still testing/purchasing for a project studio for primarily full ensemble, live recording of acoustic music. My underlying goals are to use the highest sound quality components I can afford, mixing mint used gear with newer technology. Where there is a choice between sound quality and speed/convenience, I will opt for quality; this is a hobby and the only time I need to work quickly will be when tracking.

My choices so far include a pristine M-50 Tascam mixer, a Teac 3340S, and a nice complement of KEL Audio condenser mics for tracking with an eye towards an analogue front end to a digital mixing system. I'm still contemplating how and when to make the conversion to digital but I'm leaning towards using an Apogee Duet for the interface, even though it makes for more work in getting multiple tracks into the computer.

So while I'm contemplating that issue, I'm testing the various mics and the sound of the desk and deck. The deck is in great shape, biased for one of the new tape formulas that has tons of headroom and the desk is clean for its age. I'm also doing some reading over the holidays with an eye towards filling in the blanks.

The first blank is compression/expansion devices. I'm probably settling in on dbx 266s but I'm wondering about everyone's experience with their location in the recording chain. Would I be better served by using one channel on each of my 8 mic inputs (purchasing 4 units) or could I track completely dry and come back out of the Teac with 2 or 4 tracks of compression/expansion (purchasing only 1 or 2 units) while making the transfer to digital for the mix?

I'd rather get the sound of the mics, mixer and deck up front and not rely on processor power for anything but adjusting levels, eq, reverb, etc... but I can be convinced otherwise if there are good reasons.

Thanks in advance,

Bob

Bob, you may already have this covered, and I realize it isn't addressing your question, but if you're looking to record ensembles on site you're going to need a good sounding room. What's your room treatment looking like?

-SC

 

[bobboyer]

Room description

The room is an L- shaped, 30 foot long by 20 foot wide (widest) and 10 foot wide (narrowest) former law library in the third floor attic space of a Victorian mansion owned by the University where I work. 5 foot tall bookshelves (filled with various books), pitched, popcorn ceilings rising from behind the bookshelves to a peak running the length of the room. Heavy carpet, stairwell into the room on one side of the wider space.

Room is pretty quiet other than a little street noise during business hours and some HVAC sound that can be turned off (thermostat on first floor). Due to the carpet and very irregular shapes, it's less lively than I'd like but there's not much I can do with it since the University is being nice enough to let me use it (and some of their equipment) to help with this project.

My concern is the street noise should some cars pass by at night or on weekends when I'll be tracking and controlling levels before transferring them to digital. I'll be using as little expansion/compression as possible to make things work but in principle, I'd prefer to not use any of either at any point in the process. I hate the overly compressed/processed/squeezed/loud sound of current music on my high end system at home and I'm going to try to avoid it at every point I can but I recognize there may have to be some compromises before I can get the University to create a suitable recording space for the Sphere Eclipse console and gear that was donated to us last year.

Hope this helps.

 

[Supercreep]

The room is an L- shaped, 30 foot long by 20 foot wide (widest) and 10 foot wide (narrowest) former law library in the third floor attic space of a Victorian mansion owned by the University where I work. 5 foot tall bookshelves (filled with various books), pitched, popcorn ceilings rising from behind the bookshelves to a peak running the length of the room. Heavy carpet, stairwell into the room on one side of the wider space.

Room is pretty quiet other than a little street noise during business hours and some HVAC sound that can be turned off (thermostat on first floor). Due to the carpet and very irregular shapes, it's less lively than I'd like but there's not much I can do with it since the University is being nice enough to let me use it (and some of their equipment) to help with this project.

My concern is the street noise should some cars pass by at night or on weekends when I'll be tracking and controlling levels before transferring them to digital. I'll be using as little expansion/compression as possible to make things work but in principle, I'd prefer to not use any of either at any point in the process. I hate the overly compressed/processed/squeezed/loud sound of current music on my high end system at home and I'm going to try to avoid it at every point I can but I recognize there may have to be some compromises before I can get the University to create a suitable recording space for the Sphere Eclipse console and gear that was donated to us last year.

Hope this helps.

You can add a little sparkle back into the room with some bamboo mats. Lay them out on the floor here and there around the instrument you are recording. Perhaps a few free-standing gobos could be constructed to minimize reflections from nearby surfaces during recording.

As far as isolation goes, you're not going to get anywhere with that without major construction. Being in an attic space in a very old building, I think that you should approach such construction with great trepidation; adding the mass neccesary to achieve isolation could well result in structural collapse.

 

[bobboyer]

Well, construction is out - it's not my space, it's the University's. I'm not even renting, as I commented earlier. The bamboo mats are a great idea. Thanks.

Still - I need some thoughts on expansion/compression due to the noise floor, which, while not bad, has the potential to be higher than ideal. So far, Massive Master has suggested leaving all compression and expansion off the track while it is being recorded onto tape, which I favor from both a philosophical and cost standpoint - expansion on the track coming out of the tape deck and into the computer would be less expensive as I have fewer tracks than microphones in use at one time. I'm not so much worried about compression - I can bury the needles on transients without worrying about distortion. All I have to do is keep that out of the A/D conversion.

 

[bobboyer]

deleted re-post.