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F
fitZ2
Banned
Dividing off the live room into 3 iso spaces, while still having drums in the control room leaves me wondering. 
First off, if the purpose of the iso rooms is isolation, a line drawing is fooling you. True construction of iso walls takes at least a foot of space in depth. Second, these walls are heavy, if really built for isolation, and if NOT built for isolation, then what is the point.
Not only that, the floor on an upper story will act as a drumhead, and structural transmission will occur from room to room, especially with drums and bass amps. To truly isolate ONE room is a chore in itself, let alone 4 rooms. Let alone on an upper floor. To TRULY isolate, there is only one way. And that is to build "floating rooms". Not an easy task on a concrete floor, let alone on an upper floor, as the the structural demands on this floor become extremely dangerous if not engineered correctly. Not to mention the cost involved. So, that being said, I would suggest a reality check. If I were you, I would first take a look at the existing structure itself, as even building the wall dividing the control room from the rest of the space, will be heavy, which places a load on the joists below.
Here is the real reality to studio design. Anyone can draw a few lines to represent walls and divide off space. But when it comes down to understanding the construction demands, then these lines become useless. You MUST understand that this type of construction uses MASS and decoupling to increase transmission loss from room to room. Mass means exactly what it implies. Weight. On an upper floor, this weight MUST transfer to the structure below, unless you have a new anti-gravity device
The only way this transfers, is if the floor joists, and walls below have the ability to do so. Untill you know EXACTLY what this floor and walls, beams etc are constructed from, design is a WASTE OF TIME.
fitZ
First off, if the purpose of the iso rooms is isolation, a line drawing is fooling you. True construction of iso walls takes at least a foot of space in depth. Second, these walls are heavy, if really built for isolation, and if NOT built for isolation, then what is the point.
Not only that, the floor on an upper story will act as a drumhead, and structural transmission will occur from room to room, especially with drums and bass amps. To truly isolate ONE room is a chore in itself, let alone 4 rooms. Let alone on an upper floor. To TRULY isolate, there is only one way. And that is to build "floating rooms". Not an easy task on a concrete floor, let alone on an upper floor, as the the structural demands on this floor become extremely dangerous if not engineered correctly. Not to mention the cost involved. So, that being said, I would suggest a reality check. If I were you, I would first take a look at the existing structure itself, as even building the wall dividing the control room from the rest of the space, will be heavy, which places a load on the joists below.
Here is the real reality to studio design. Anyone can draw a few lines to represent walls and divide off space. But when it comes down to understanding the construction demands, then these lines become useless. You MUST understand that this type of construction uses MASS and decoupling to increase transmission loss from room to room. Mass means exactly what it implies. Weight. On an upper floor, this weight MUST transfer to the structure below, unless you have a new anti-gravity device
The only way this transfers, is if the floor joists, and walls below have the ability to do so. Untill you know EXACTLY what this floor and walls, beams etc are constructed from, design is a WASTE OF TIME. fitZ
M
Mongoo
New member
This is a similar drawing Ive made in a architechture program. I'm not sure how deep of floating floors I will put in. Are there ways you think this design could be improved? I should mention that this is being in a bonus room (3rd floor) It was designed to bear weight. So I don't think that will be a big factor.
Couple of questions though... 1) How do you run cables in? do you use a patch bay or something else? 2) Whats the best way I can take out the paraelle walls without loseing too much space in the main control room? 3) Will it be a problem that there are two windows in paraelle in the control room? If so how could this be resolved?
Thanks for your realities.
Mongoo
Couple of questions though... 1) How do you run cables in? do you use a patch bay or something else? 2) Whats the best way I can take out the paraelle walls without loseing too much space in the main control room? 3) Will it be a problem that there are two windows in paraelle in the control room? If so how could this be resolved?
Thanks for your realities.
Mongoo
Attachments
iqi616
Yet another Mike
I agree with fitZ that you need to look at the structure of the floors below. I doubt that it was designed to support that amount of lumber. Where are the support beams?
Because of the problems isolating bass and drums (after-all, the whole house is going to shake), maybe you should go with something less ambitious. Have just one space that is isolated just enough that you can hear what's coming out of the monitors over the leaked sound from the kit when you're recording. That would be a double-wall with the drums on an isolated riser. Maybe have a vocal booth too but as long as you're not recording vocals at the same time as the rest of the band, that doesn't need much isolation.
I don't bother about isolation. I'm in a detached house so the neighbours are reasonably protected from noise pollution. I only bother about controlling the resonances and reflections within the space. As for noise pollution within the house, I wait till the rest of the family is out before recording loud instruments.
Because of the problems isolating bass and drums (after-all, the whole house is going to shake), maybe you should go with something less ambitious. Have just one space that is isolated just enough that you can hear what's coming out of the monitors over the leaked sound from the kit when you're recording. That would be a double-wall with the drums on an isolated riser. Maybe have a vocal booth too but as long as you're not recording vocals at the same time as the rest of the band, that doesn't need much isolation.
I don't bother about isolation. I'm in a detached house so the neighbours are reasonably protected from noise pollution. I only bother about controlling the resonances and reflections within the space. As for noise pollution within the house, I wait till the rest of the family is out before recording loud instruments.
mshilarious
Banned
I hate to say it, but this is a poor design and you should start over. The extra room has extremely poor egress. Your live room is too small. The dead room is teensy and is mostly a hallway.
The control/hangout room should be in the middle of the iso rooms, with the dead room on the right, and a big live/practice room on the left. Get the drums out of the control room! Put the gear closet directly off the control room, not halfway up the stairs.
The control/hangout room should be in the middle of the iso rooms, with the dead room on the right, and a big live/practice room on the left. Get the drums out of the control room! Put the gear closet directly off the control room, not halfway up the stairs.
M
Mongoo
New member
Thanks for the advice. I made a very, very ruff drawing of the 2nd floor. I don't know yet where all of the support beams are, I just know the layout of the 2nd floor.
I drew some sheet rock thats been sitting up there for the last 30 years without a problem. I don't know if it matters, but these are full sheets that are stacked on each others sides about 3 feet in height. I don't know how much it ways but I know one sheet is heavy. so 3 feet should be very heavy and they are laying on an area with no walls directly underneath as an added support. Just the floor hold that weight. For what its worth, they are actually on the other side of the room. I drew it upside down without realizing.
By looking at this drawing, do you know where the support beams would be? I would think it somewhere in the walls around the bathroom and kitchen (middle of the picture) but don't really know.
About the Design.... Maybe I am just not thinking this through. I know the vocal booth is small but I didn't really think you needed that much space for it. And the live room is I think at its smallest dimensions like 13' x 7'. Maybe not big enough to put a whole group but big enough for drums.
Is the reason for not having to drums in a combinded room that the monitors would vibrate the drums and produce bad waves? I probably wouldn't ever listen to the monitors if there was playing in that room. For one reason that most likely I would be playing with my band.
And the only reason I have the mic closet where I do, is that it is allready framed to be a closet. I'll have to use it for something anyways.
What size rooms do you think are needed for vocals? Drums? Guitar? Control room?
Again, I thank you for you points.
Mongoo
I drew some sheet rock thats been sitting up there for the last 30 years without a problem. I don't know if it matters, but these are full sheets that are stacked on each others sides about 3 feet in height. I don't know how much it ways but I know one sheet is heavy. so 3 feet should be very heavy and they are laying on an area with no walls directly underneath as an added support. Just the floor hold that weight. For what its worth, they are actually on the other side of the room. I drew it upside down without realizing.
By looking at this drawing, do you know where the support beams would be? I would think it somewhere in the walls around the bathroom and kitchen (middle of the picture) but don't really know.
About the Design.... Maybe I am just not thinking this through. I know the vocal booth is small but I didn't really think you needed that much space for it. And the live room is I think at its smallest dimensions like 13' x 7'. Maybe not big enough to put a whole group but big enough for drums.
Is the reason for not having to drums in a combinded room that the monitors would vibrate the drums and produce bad waves? I probably wouldn't ever listen to the monitors if there was playing in that room. For one reason that most likely I would be playing with my band.
And the only reason I have the mic closet where I do, is that it is allready framed to be a closet. I'll have to use it for something anyways.
What size rooms do you think are needed for vocals? Drums? Guitar? Control room?
Again, I thank you for you points.
Mongoo
Attachments
mshilarious
Banned
Mongoo said:
Sure. But if you take from the control room and the other two iso room, then you have enough for a full band, and a better sounding space that will potentially require less treatment. Why compromise?
I just don't get why you want to combine those two. Make one big live room for recording and rehearsal. What happens if you decide to record, you move the drums all the way across the floor through four doors to the live room? Doesn't make sense.
OK, use it for coats. But imagine this: you've got a musician set up in the extra room (because you realize the dead room is far too small), and you want to grab a different mic. You have to go through seven doors, down four stairs, grab the mic, and then go back again. Generally speaking, stairs + carrying gear = a bad idea.
mshilarious
Banned
Oh, one thing I missed earlier: the pipe that goes through the roof, that's a vent for your plumbing. It ain't gonna be cheap or easy to move that, so plan on framing around it, whether that's putting it in a wall, or building a little box.
M
Mongoo
New member
Quote -- Sure. But if you take from the control room and the other two iso room, then you have enough for a full band, and a better sounding space that will potentially require less treatment. Why compromise? --
Well the idea behind this is, what if I want to record several people at the same time but wanted to get clean tracks of each for better mixing. Maybe most people just record everybody in the same room if they are doing a live performance. I just though that would muddle all the tracks together and make it difficult to mix. Because the drums would get picked up by the bass and guitar tracks and so on.
Quote -- I just don't get why you want to combine those two. Make one big live room for recording and rehearsal. What happens if you decide to record, you move the drums all the way across the floor through four doors to the live room? Doesn't make sense. --
I would like to do alot of ruff tracking in the practice room and then use a seperate room for serious (like I want to put this out a cd) recording. I agree that hauling the drums into a seperate room could be a burden. But I may end out owning 2 drumsets to serve this purpose. At the same time I don't see why I can't record the drums in the practice space. I mean If I'm alone (which I will be mostly), and want to record myself drumming, I'm not going to be able to listen to the monitors anyways. I would think the practice room would work fine for this. That is unless I'm going for a different room effect. At the same time If I record someone else playing drums a seperate room can be handy.
Overall the right side should be the most comfortable space because of the window. If I combo the room I get the window when I practice and when I mix. Comboing the room also make it much more spaceous. I also like the Idea of playing keyboard with a view of the trees. That would be nice. Another plus to a combo room is that I get a bigger space for my monitors which will be the Blue sky system one 2.1. It would be nice if I'm going to get expensive speakers to have a big comfortable area for everyone to listen to the mixes on them.
Quote -- OK, use it for coats. But imagine this: you've got a musician set up in the extra room (because you realize the dead room is far too small), and you want to grab a different mic. You have to go through seven doors, down four stairs, grab the mic, and then go back again. Generally speaking, stairs + carrying gear = a bad idea. --
I may have a different closet. It just depends if the space required is worth the loss to the other rooms.
Again, Thank you very much for your views. Can you see where I'm coming from on this? You've got to realize that I am ultimatly just a musician songwriter who has this big space, is more of a musician than a recording engineer and wants to be able to make pro cd's of his works. I'm all for redesigning, but can't figure out a design I can see myself in yet. I'm still trying to figure out whats important and whats not.
So far I know non-paraelle walls are good, longer rooms for mixing are good, and isolation rooms should be a room within a room. What can you add to that
Well the idea behind this is, what if I want to record several people at the same time but wanted to get clean tracks of each for better mixing. Maybe most people just record everybody in the same room if they are doing a live performance. I just though that would muddle all the tracks together and make it difficult to mix. Because the drums would get picked up by the bass and guitar tracks and so on.
Quote -- I just don't get why you want to combine those two. Make one big live room for recording and rehearsal. What happens if you decide to record, you move the drums all the way across the floor through four doors to the live room? Doesn't make sense. --
I would like to do alot of ruff tracking in the practice room and then use a seperate room for serious (like I want to put this out a cd) recording. I agree that hauling the drums into a seperate room could be a burden. But I may end out owning 2 drumsets to serve this purpose. At the same time I don't see why I can't record the drums in the practice space. I mean If I'm alone (which I will be mostly), and want to record myself drumming, I'm not going to be able to listen to the monitors anyways. I would think the practice room would work fine for this. That is unless I'm going for a different room effect. At the same time If I record someone else playing drums a seperate room can be handy.
Overall the right side should be the most comfortable space because of the window. If I combo the room I get the window when I practice and when I mix. Comboing the room also make it much more spaceous. I also like the Idea of playing keyboard with a view of the trees. That would be nice. Another plus to a combo room is that I get a bigger space for my monitors which will be the Blue sky system one 2.1. It would be nice if I'm going to get expensive speakers to have a big comfortable area for everyone to listen to the mixes on them.
Quote -- OK, use it for coats. But imagine this: you've got a musician set up in the extra room (because you realize the dead room is far too small), and you want to grab a different mic. You have to go through seven doors, down four stairs, grab the mic, and then go back again. Generally speaking, stairs + carrying gear = a bad idea. --
I may have a different closet. It just depends if the space required is worth the loss to the other rooms.
Again, Thank you very much for your views. Can you see where I'm coming from on this? You've got to realize that I am ultimatly just a musician songwriter who has this big space, is more of a musician than a recording engineer and wants to be able to make pro cd's of his works. I'm all for redesigning, but can't figure out a design I can see myself in yet. I'm still trying to figure out whats important and whats not.
So far I know non-paraelle walls are good, longer rooms for mixing are good, and isolation rooms should be a room within a room. What can you add to that
M
Mongoo
New member
mshilarious said:
mshilarious, what do you mean by the extra room having extreamely poor egress? What are the problem angles? Thanks.
mshilarious
Banned
Mongoo said:
Egress is entering and exiting a room. If you are using double doors for soundproofing, then you'd have to travel through seven doors (including one sliding door by the stairs) to get out.
Also I neglected that sliding door by the stairs before. Generally, you cannot have a door at the top of a staircase like that unless it's to a utility room like a basement. Otherwise you'd need a landing at the top of the stairs. I'm not sure how that applies to your situation, it might not be required.
Functionally, however, it's very helpful to have a landing, and since you have plenty of space I'd recommend one.
I've struggled with a redesign for your space; I think you're best off flipping the plan horizontally, changing the extra room into a control room, the live room into an iso room, and the dead room into a hallway/landing. That's not a bad design with a few tweaks.
However the one requirement I can't meet is the keyboards by the window
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Innovations
New member
mshilarious
Banned
That's a better design. I think I'd try to steal some space from the small studio for storage.