Club engineers with egos / SM58

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nuemes

nuemes

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So...I go to a club to listen to a band that I've recorded multiple sessions with. I love this band. I've learned through mutliple recording and live gigs that the singer sounds muddy on a SM58.

You know how this goes: some singers can sound good through an SM58 and some very bad.

At the club, a very well known Seattle club, I see they have SM58's set up. Well before the band goes onstage I go to the sound guy, an older guy than most sound guys by far, and tell him that I've heard the band live before, that I have a very, very humble backround in recording and that the singer sounds much better with a Sennheiser 835, which I know for a fact they have avail. I tell him the singer will sound muddy through the 58. He tells me how long he's been doing sound w/ the club, 20 years, and that he's got it dialed in EQ-wise with the 58 for no mud.

Ok. Sweet. I've got less experience, dude has been doing live sound forever, he knows the venue. So I'm looking forward to kick ass sound, which this singer fully deserves as she is a tremendous talent.

You know how this goes: it sounds like shit.

The dude sticks with his SM58, singer sounds muddy, he EQ's every living frequency in her range the darn heck out of her mic and the audience is left with this high-mid loaf of vocal to attempt to discerne trancendent lyrics from.

For the record: I can live with an engineer who doesn't take to heart what every person that walks up with a recommendation says - duh - but I cannot - and will not again listen to - mixes from idiot engineers that won't take a moment to switch a mic out after the first song makes it abundently clear that that's exactly what needs to be done.

I am buying the singer a 835 to insist she use at any gig from now on.

20 years of experience and not enough creativity to change a mic between songs. What a dope. I commit myself to more than that. :mad:
 
Well, all I can say is kudos to you that you believe in this singer so much that you'll buy her a mic for her next gig... Not every body would do that...
 
As a live engineer, I try to accomodate any requests and am usually totally willing to try anything and any mic. I am 99.5% on your side, but would need more details about the gig before agreeing 100%. :)
 
I prefer an 835 or an SM57 on my own voice rather than a 58. However, it seems to me that any half-wit should be able to dial in a decent sound with a 58.
 
Ran live sound for years, and in the dudes defense............... do you know how many times a night a self professed "engeneer/producer/musician" comes up and tells you what needs to be fixed with the mix? I would deffinately give more credence to someone I know is "with" the band, but it gets irksome after a while.

Bottom line? Dont take it personal, the dudes working, and no matter how special or important the gig is to the band, its just another day at the office for him!
 
An sm58 certainly may not always be the best choice of mic for a given singer, but it should always be acceptable or there is something esle happening. My bet is that if this engineer could not make the 58 work well, then no mic would have worked well in this situation. Being a FOH engineer primarily I can tell you with near certainty that this was more a case of bad engineering and not bad mic selection.
 
Another point..... If mic selection is vital, she shouldnt be walking in emplty handed using a random house mic.
 
If I was doing live sound, and some dumbass I've never met started trying to micro-manage and tell me what mics to use ... I'd tell him/her to get the fuck out of my face.

Unless he/she wanted to slip me 40 bucks under the table or something.

.
 
I used to hate singing thru SM58's live too, because of the mud factor. So I would always carry an EV ND967 to the shows with me, and alot of times it was hell trying to convince the sound dudes to let me use my own mic. That is why most times, if we could, we would bring our own PA to the clubs, so we wouldn't have to deal with the bull shit. It was always well worth the extra work.
 
I usually give whoever's the lead singer an M400, and then anyone else gets a 58. Unless they bring their own mics. As long as they seem legit, I let them use what they've got.
 
I was at a show this past weekend and I had a similar scenario I suppose. It was my friends cd release show and the sound was sooo bad. The guy was running everything fine , micing everything pretty standard ... but he decided to make the whole mix swim in reverb. The mix got so mudded up from his reverb and I didnt have the guts to tell him. I don't want to question the guys authority or experience so I let him mud up the mix as much as he wanted. It took away any clarity that could of been had. Maybe next time I'll get the balls to stick up for the bands sound .. or at least give my input.

At least you tried to stick up for the singer, better than I can say for myself. The guy of course should of listened to you or at least tried it.
 
you might have pissed him off. what you heard might have been him turning up the "suck" up to 10 on the vocals. Or just not caring after being annoyed.

Even if this is not the case, you prolly shoulda said something like this:

"Hey, man, I have been recording this band for a while and do soudn for them on a lot of gigs, and that singer always sounds pretty muddy on a 58. You think I could go switch it out for that Sennheiser over there? That mic is made for her..."

"Nah, I've been...blah blah... 20 years.. blah blah...etc. etc..."

"OK, cool man. Lemme know if I can help out setting some sh*t up or check levels out there. Peace."

Being professional and letting people do their job is important. As an associate of the band, you've got to help generate a good vibe with the club owners and employees in order to get a good name ofr the band and also get back to play again.
 
That's just being a pussy. Here's what you do:

1) tap his head with said sm58
2) repeat this quote from Back To The Future: "Hello! McFly"
3) add lib "Muddy! McFly"
4) proceed down to the stage to replace the mic
5) go back to the board and give him that look for 5 minutes
 
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