Clean Tube Amp Head

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TDG94

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Hello All,
I need all of your help choosing an amp head, good enough for recording, but also 30-40+ watts for live use in smaller venues. Here's some background info.
I'm in love with clean, vintage tone. Reference bands such as "Girls", "Born Ruffians", "Grizzly Bear", "Bombay Bicycle Club". I like the old Fender tone, with a bit of tasteful breakup if I tweak the volume correctly. I'll be playing blues, a bit of jazz, some indie, stuff like The Smiths.
I'm in love with the Fender Super-Sonic head, it's exactly what I want, all except for the price. The Fender Bandmaster VM is more in my price range, but it's not all tube (I'm not sure how that works, if you'd like to explain, I'd be eternally grateful), and I'm not sure if I like the onboard effects. I just want a straight up tube amp, with clean tone, that only breaks up near max. volume. I'm one of those people who'd rather buy a slew of stomp boxes than have onboard effects jeopardize any tone. I figure, the simpler it is, the less there is to go wrong.
Any other brands/models that you think I'd like, would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
 
cleanest tube head i've ever used was a Fender Twin.

this is what eric johnson uses (a pair, in stereo/chorus) for his ultra clean spanky vintage fender tones.

on a small scale, the fender supersonic is ok, my buddy has one, but he has a more driven sound so maybe he doesn't have it dialed in for its' cleanest available tones...

you get fenders, for that fender sound..

but don't forget about other wonderful clean sounding amps, such as hiwatt, vox, musicman, because if you want clean headroom for rock gigs, you probably need about 100 watts.

50 watts gives you breakup earlier....
just depends on your stage volume.

i've done gigs with clean amp tones from a 5 watt amp, using the PA and monitors for stage volume.
 
A Vox AC 30 also has really nice cleans, but for me the Fender amps rule the clean roost.
 
P.S. I'll most likely be pairing it with an Avatar G412 or another avatar under $500 that matches ohm wise.
 
I have zero experience with HEADS that fit your needs, but if you can consider a combo, or remove the chassis from a combo and put it in a, (ahem) head case, I'd vote for the Fender Twin, except it's a HEAVY and LOUD beast. Clean tone/head room for days, though. A Pro Reverb is not quite as heavy or loud, but it's close.

Fender Deluxe Reverbs are not nearly so heavy or loud, but they are pricy little buggers- either vintage or RI, seems like one will set you back about $1,200 (from memory, not research today.) I gotta crow and say I got mine (vintage SF) for about 10% of that price...:D

Budget option (under $300-400) would certainly include the Peavey Classic 30, which has two channels and reverb, or the Classic 20- when you can find them. Peavey didn't make scads of that amp, and they seem to come on the used market very rarely. And perhaps Fender's Hot Rod Deville or Deluxe. I think Peavey might have made the Classic 50 in a head configuration. 'Course, there are others, but those are the ones that I have personal experience with, and come readily to mind.
 
The HRD wouldn't be a bad choice. A couple of mods to it and it can be a sweet little amp.
 
Check out a Rivera. They are built like tanks and do the Fender thing really well.
 
Well, for one thing, Fender calls it a "hybrid," and I would think that if it was all-tube (SS rectifiers do not violate that definition, for some reason) Fender would be darn sure to say so. I can tell you that, when Fender's amps really were all tube amps (I don't mean the whole line, I mean individual amps that had no SS components,) the effects were limited to tremolo and reverb- and they were produced with tubes. So, I would say that, as the Bandmaster VM does those things and others with a DSP, that makes the amp a hybrid.

I guess that if you don't use ANY effects, you might effectively have an all-tube amp, but maybe not if you were playing the amp distorted- the Bandmaster's little brother, the Super Champ XD, does it's distortion using the DSP, so maybe the Bandmaster does, too.

On a related, er, "note," I tried playing my SCXD with my attenuator in-line between the amp and the speaker, and was underwhelmed by the results- it didn't seem to sound much better than the DSP pre-amp side distortion. Yet, when I use the same attenuator with my vintage Deluxe Reverb, it sounds wonderful. What's up with that?

Does that help?
 
My guess is that the preamp signal is always routed through the AD/DA converters even when the effects are not used. That would kill the natural tube tone and give it a much more sterile tone. That's the reason some guys won't use digital effects.
 
That makes sense to me, ocnor. I only wish there was something I could do about it- besides only playing thru the DR.
 
stevieb said:
... I would think that if it was all-tube (SS rectifiers do not violate that definition, for some reason)....
Click to expand...

That's because a rectifier doesn't act directly on amplifying the audio signal...it just "controls" how the power tubes react...a "governor" if you will.
A SS rectifier makes the power tubes react more tightly/precisely, while a tube rectifier is a bit more sluggish/slower...which is why the term "sag" is often used to describe the action of the rectifier (tube or SS) on the power tubes..

So even with a SS rectifier...it's still a tube *amplifier*. Plus...there are many other components in a tube amp that are solid state, if you look beyond the rectifier.
 
The entire VM series is built on the same idea. The front end of the amp is a DSP-based modeling amp. It's digital. The amp's power section is all tube. If dialed in, they can sound great - especially with clean tones. The effects are also DSP. If you have ever heard of a Marshall 3203, this is the same kind of setup but with a digital front end instead of a plain old SS front end.

In terms of what I would recommend for you: I have to respectfully disagree with any sentiment that says you need 50-100 watts. A Vox AC30 is effing loud, and it's only a 30-watt amp. If you get in the neighborhood of 30 watts with an Orange or a Marshall and you have an efficient cab, you will probably be OK. The same is true of a Fender combo if it doesn't have a hot preamp.

As for Fenders, I would suggest you look at the Blues Deluxe Reissues (40 watts, 1x12). Similarly, you can look at the Hot Rod series amps (15 watt 1x10, 15 watt 1x12, 40 watt 1x12, 60 watt 2x12, 60 watt 4x10). These will range from about $400 to maybe $900 new (I haven't looked at one in a long time). After that, you're into '59 Bassman Reissue territory. That is a loud amp with a beautiful breakup. You will be cooking before it starts to get dirty, though. And, although most think it sounds better than the Blues Deluxe and Hot Rod amps, it lacks the conveniences of reverb, a master volume, an effects loop, etc. Avoid the Custom Vibrolux Reverb. It is not a traditional "clean" Fender amp. Above that, you've got the Super Reverb, Twin, Twin Reverb, and on into Custom Shop territory.

Most importantly, go play as many as you can. That Bandmaster VM is a nice amp if you are willing to tweak the knobs a little and work on your sound. Just look for some videos by Greg Koch on those things. He has no trouble pulling good tones from those boxes.
 
miroslav said:
Plus...there are many other components in a tube amp that are solid state, if you look beyond the rectifier.
Click to expand...

I don't know if I should ask you "Like what?" or if I should ask "Which amps are you talking about?" I know there is likely a difference that can be drawn, quartered, and argued between "solid state" and "digital," the term solid state should not by definition equate to digital. For example, if I understand transistors correctly, a transistor is a solid state component but it is not strictly speaking "digital." Not all solid state components are digital, but all digital components are solid state. Right?

But you'll have a hard time convincing me that my Frenzel amp has anything solid state in it. (discounting, of course, the Weber solid state copper top rectifier "tube" that I added to it after I got it) I'm having trouble picturing an "all tube" amp that would have P-2-P wiring that includes solid state components if it doesn't have any PCB's in it.
 
The Fender Super Champ XD is like that. There is a "preamp" tube, but its really just a phase inverter. Yet this amp scores big on the Fender clean chime. The bandmaster..........not so much. I use on at rehearsal. I don't own it, but Im familiar. Its got more of a rounded 60's tubey tone.
I have to dime the treble and tweak the pedals to make it sound good. It sounds way more round and fat with humbuckers. Terrible IMHO.
 
miroslav said:
That's because a rectifier doesn't act directly on amplifying the audio signal...it just "controls" how the power tubes react...a "governor" if you will.
A SS rectifier makes the power tubes react more tightly/precisely, while a tube rectifier is a bit more sluggish/slower...which is why the term "sag" is often used to describe the action of the rectifier (tube or SS) on the power tubes...

So even with a SS rectifier...it's still a tube *amplifier*. Plus...there are many other components in a tube amp that are solid state, if you look beyond the rectifier.
Click to expand...

Ah, yes, that makes sense, too. I remember popping the rectifier tube in my Deluxe Reverb once- the center pin with it's locating notch had broken off, and the tube came out during transport. It was dark, and although I though I put it back in right, it became obvious I had not. Poof! My fav. shop only had a SS plug-in replacement, and the show owner said to try it, if I didn't like it he would order me a tube rec. I was not able to do an A/B comparo, but I decided I'd rather have the tube, as the cost was the same and most guys who expressed a preference went with the tube. He ordered the tube and exchanged it when I went back. Don't know how that story fits in with the OP, but having spent the time to type it, it's getting posted!
 
I have a HRD 40 watt, and a twin and they are both amazing combos for clean. The HRD can be bought for pretty cheap and few mods, and new tubes and it's awesome. As far as heads go, if you're going to be spending $500 on a new cab anyway, a combo might be a good way to go. Twins, DRRI, and HRD (with mods - new speaker, better tubes, change out a few capacitors - and for the cost you might as well get the Twin), in that order and all around $1000 all said and done.

VOX will chime more, but it's not really, in my opinion a classic clean sound. Though I do use VOX style amps more than Fenders.
 
Regarding "solid-state components in a tube amp" I don't know about the particular Frenzel amp you have (I'm envious!). It is probably built part for part (with upgraded parts!) and wire for wire to match a vintage design (5E3 if it is a Deluxe) and as such would not have any solid-state components at all.

Modern "tube" amps will VERY often use a solid state diode bridge in place of the rectifier tube. Depending on the amp it can have no effect on the sound or a huge effect on the sound, the biggest variable being whether it has a single ended class A or push-pull class AB output stage. With class A output circuit (think Champ, early Princeton), you're really not going to hear any difference (many will argue about this but I challenge any of them to back it up). With class AB push-pull (Deluxe, Bassman and a gazillion derivatives of these two great circuits), it can make a huge difference depending on how the rest of the power supply circuit is designed. The terms sag and bloom are often associated with the sound of tube rectifier based power supplies in these amps. Most folks that play these amps like it, but not all. For me it's one my favorite aspects of the 5E3 sound. It creates a touch sensitivity that just isn't there without the sag.

The other places where modern tube amps will use solid state components very often are in the effects send and return circuits, reverb driver and collector circuits, and in footswitch control circuits. Tubes for footswitch controls would be a total and utter waste. Vintage amps didn't have switching anyway and it isn't connected with the sound, so it kinda doesn't count in my mind, but it's there. (I've never seen an amp design with tubes in the footswitch circuitry.) As for the effect loop and reverb tank driver/collector, it depends how much of a purist you want to be. If you only care about sound, I suspect nobody can hear the difference. Hotrod Deluxe and Deville are designed with solid-state circuitry in both places (and foot-swtich, of course). The Super-sonic the OP mentioned. Has tube reverb driver collector in the combo (head has no reverb), but has solid state output buffer for the pre-amp out.

There also are often a lot of protective diodes in tube amps today that wouldn't have been present in vintage amps. These are reverse biased under normal conditions but will come to the rescue and save other components if there's a major failure in the amp. I wouldn't be surprised to see some of these in the Frenzel amp (but maybe not). They have NO EFFECT on the sound and are just plain good design. No reason to worry about them at all.

Finally, of course, there the amps with digital processors built into them, like Champ XD or Line 6 Spider Valve III. The digital parts are of course, solid state. Not an inherently bad idea (I have a Spider Valve that I rarely play), because they give you lot's of different sounds, but none of them sound as good as the real deal to me.

For the OP... Have you ever considered building an amp? It's great fun (if you're into that sort of thing), and you can get an absolutely killer amp for a really good price (not dirt cheap mind you, but way less than what you'd pay for the same thing ready made). If you're interested, PM me and I can send you some links on where to read about, get parts a good prices, etc.

J
 
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