CL-2 Cable for inlaid studio wiring?

[frederic]

Greetings,

I'm about to purchase snake cable for my studio, before I drop a ton of money, I wanted to confirm my thoughts with the group if no one minds. All of the cabling mentioned here are for line level signals, such as samplers, midi modules, drum machines, etc. I already ordered low impedence starquad cable to facilitate four XLR connections in the vocal booth, and four XLR connections in the back area where my rackmount gear is located.

Anyway, from a patch bay perspective, I have three cleaned up 1U ADC 144 pt TT patch bays. The top bay will be allocated for analog mixer I/O, which includes 56 analog ins, 18 aux sends, 16 foldback sends, eight outboard returns, and about 32 stereo outboard returns which will be for a outboard submixer, totaling 130 connections. This top bay is mounted on the console table so I'll not use snake wiring for this bay, but rather point to point and use wire hangers and ties underneath for neatness.

The next two patch bays in the rack have a combined total of 288 TT jacks, which will be extended to the back of the room to many devices, including four stereo power amps, 18U of outboards, the analog ins/outs of the akai recorders, and all the midi modules, samplers, drum machines, and whatnot. Most of these items are not balanced, but I'm going to use balanced wiring anyway in case I need it down the road.

So essentially I need 288 TRS pairs extending 30' (including vertical climb). Since 288 is divisable by 48, I ended up with a decided requirement for 6 snakes, each with 48 TRS pairs individually shielded. At the prices below, I ended up with:

5 bucks a foot x 30 feet = 150 bucks.
150 bucks x 6 cables = 900 bucks.

Then, I have to figure out where to buy inexpesive, quality (ha) TT plugs to make TRS patch cords. A little oversight on my part!

I have many ADC 48 pt 1/4" open frame patch bays but decided to go with the 144 bays because aside from the price being right (about 70 bucks a bay used) to get the same jackfield quantity (432 jacks) I'd end up with 9U of space used rather than 3U. This leaves more room in the small console table rack for other key, often touched gear.

What do you all think? Are these decent prices? In the ball park? Is this the right cable?

Thanks in advance!

Frederic

<quote>CL-2 Multi-Pair snake cable is constructed using individual jacketed pairs of 24 AWG. conductors with individual channel numbers on each. Each Pair is individually shielded with a 100% coverage foil, for optimum signal protection. The outer jacket of Matte PVC was constructed to meet permanent install rating requirements

CL-2 - 1000' + 1000'

6-PR $0.83 $0.75
8-PR $1.04 $0.98
9-PR $1.09 $1.00
12-PR $1.45 $1.28
16-PR $1.73 $1.61
20-PR $2.18 $2.04
28-PR $3.09 $2.90
32-PR $3.47 $3.27
36-PR $3.85 $3.45
40-PR $4.51 $4.05
48-PR $4.99 $4.67
58-PR $5.79 $5.57</quote>

 

[skippy]

It sounds like it is in the ballpark at $5/ft. Who is the manufacturer of the cable?

For the long runs, using the multicore will be quick and relatively painless. Do those ADC bays have pigtails to 66 or 110 blocks, or are you going to terminate the mutlicore right on the back of the bay? I'd also buy a good-sized roll of single pair console cable for all the other interconnect: that 48-pair cable isn't going to be very maneuverable, and you'll have lots of point-to-point to do. No news there, through.

Bantam patch cables cost a fortune. Hell, WECO (longframe) patch cords do too. However, getting the premade patch cords is worth it: they are strain-relieved and are worth every dime, since they are nearly immortal. Recording Engineer was selling a bunch of them used over here:

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=34591

Otherwise, I'd say just hold your nose and snag a bunch from Markertek or Full compass, and be done with it. You'll have enough fun doing the termination work on the bays: leave building the patches to someone else...

 

[frederic]

It sounds like it is in the ballpark at $5/ft. Who is the manufacturer of the cable?

Belden!

For the long runs, using the multicore will be quick and relatively painless. Do those ADC bays have pigtails to 66 or 110 blocks, or are you going to terminate the mutlicore right on the back of the bay? I'd also buy a good-sized roll of single pair console cable for all the other interconnect: that 48-pair cable isn't going to be very maneuverable, and you'll have lots of point-to-point to do. No news there, through.

At this point the bays are naked - they are open frame. One arrived with Elco's, one had punchdowns that were damaged by impact, and one had a 3' pigtail that looked like it was cut with a sawzall. So I desoldered everything, reassembled the rack ears and side pieces, and ready to solder in new cabling. I'm going to build behind the patch bays a horizontal cable tie area so I can have a little slack near the bay without the weight of the cable pulling down and bending jack ends. I know i'll need to pull a bay out and resolder flaky connections at one point, so an extra 1.5' should give me enough extra slack to pull 'em out to work on them.

Bantam patch cables cost a fortune. Hell, WECO (longframe) patch cords do too. However, getting the premade patch cords is worth it: they are strain-relieved and are worth every dime, since they are nearly immortal. Recording Engineer was selling a bunch of them used over here:

The best price on the web I have seen is $280 for 25 2' TT patch cords. I'm not done shopping <G>. I'll check out that link too, thank you mucho!

Otherwise, I'd say just hold your nose and snag a bunch from Markertek or Full compass, and be done with it. You'll have enough fun doing the termination work on the bays: leave building the patches to someone else...

I agree with you. After soldering everything I have to at this point, I'd be inclined to bit the bullet and just buy the patch cords.

lets see...

144 jacks per bay, three bays, 3 connections per jack = 1296
Do the same at the back of the room = 1296
Making patch cords for the gear in the back to the back bays=2592.

Total: 5184 times I have to touch something with my soldering iron, assuming I get each joint right the first time.

Maybe I should have a pizza party at my house and have some of you pro's over <grin>. just kidding

 

[skippy]

$5/ft for Belden CL-2 48-pair sounds fine to me.

For the cable strain reliefs, consider doing a tubular construction lacing bar right behind the jacks (the Switchcraft style locates this lacing bar about 2.5" behind them). This makes the free span of unsupported cable be as mimimal as possible, and lets you reef that multicore bundle down _securely_ so that none of the dangle-weight gets taken on the solder lugs: it all has to go directly and rigidly to the rack ears. That freakin' multicore is _heavy_, and there's more vibration sources in a control room than you can think of as healthy...

You can then leave a 2' or so loop of the multicore inside the rack for slack for the (inevitable) pullout-and-reconfigure cycles. On the ADCs, I vaguely remember the side panels extending inboard far enough that you can hang a 1"x1/4" bar across the back, and still have adequate room for working it. That'd work even more securely than the Switchcraft, which can only hold up 25lb or so without bending.

Time is money. It's worth investing custom soldering time in setting up the unique, individual features of your rig. Patch cords, on the other hand, are a commodity- and it's damned hard and time-consuming to make them as bombproof as the merchant items are. 5k solder joints ought to be enough fun for about anyone! I have about that many in my rig, and all I can say is that I'm glad it's done.

Except, of course, that it's _not_ done... I've had all my bays out a few times now, and one strip will be coming out *again* this week for some normalling reconfiguration when I get the new converters in. It's never _done_, even if you plan the hell out of it!

Pizza, beer, and rosin flux smoke. Sounds like a plan...

 

[ausrock]

Damn Skippy,

Now you've made me hungry, thirsty and my eyes are waterin' from that bloody smoke.

Peace.........ChrisO

 

[frederic]

$5/ft for Belden CL-2 48-pair sounds fine to me.

Cool

For the cable strain reliefs, consider doing a tubular construction lacing bar right behind the jacks (the Switchcraft style locates this lacing bar about 2.5" behind them). This makes the free span of unsupported cable be as mimimal as possible, and lets you reef that multicore bundle down _securely_ so that none of the dangle-weight gets taken on the solder lugs: it all has to go directly and rigidly to the rack ears. That freakin' multicore is _heavy_, and there's more vibration sources in a control room than you can think of as healthy...

You're right, and I initially came up with a way to handle the strain relieving situation, however what I didn't take into consideration is the mounting of the strain relief would be on the console furniture, rather than the patch bay, thus I wouldn't be able to remove the bay easily (if at all). I may have to fabricate a little sheet metal on the sides of the bay to extend them back, put the bar(s), then drape the cabling over a larger bar at the back of the console table, so I can pull the bay out with the wires tied to it tightly. Unfortunately the three bays I have are nothing mroe than the front panel, 144 ADC jacks, and in the thick front panel, rack ears. I need to think about this some more, maybe I should mount the three bays together and hinge one side (left?) and have the cabling tie at the hinged side to the console table, so it doesn't pull, but so I can still access the panels for solder repairs and such.

You can then leave a 2' or so loop of the multicore inside the rack for slack for the (inevitable) pullout-and-reconfigure cycles. On the ADCs, I vaguely remember the side panels extending inboard far enough that you can hang a 1"x1/4" bar across the back, and still have adequate room for working it. That'd work even more securely than the Switchcraft, which can only hold up 25lb or so without bending.

Bars like that are plentiful here, I used to weld together race car chassis, so thats a great idea. Thanks!

Time is money. It's worth investing custom soldering time in setting up the unique, individual features of your rig. Patch cords, on the other hand, are a commodity- and it's damned hard and time-consuming to make them as bombproof as the merchant items are. 5k solder joints ought to be enough fun for about anyone! I have about that many in my rig, and all I can say is that I'm glad it's done.

Agreed. I've soldered several studios together however the cable was always provided so I never really put a lot of thought into it regarding what it is. One actually used unshielded twisted 100 pair cable and baluns (eeeeek). talk about doing it the hard way. But I was paid by the hour so whatever they wanted me to solder, I soldered.

Except, of course, that it's _not_ done... I've had all my bays out a few times now, and one strip will be coming out *again* this week for some normalling reconfiguration when I get the new converters in. It's never _done_, even if you plan the hell out of it!

I'm sure with the amount of gear I buy and sell I'll be reconfiguring things often. This part of the project is basically a "truss" between the front and the back of the rooms, and I can patch things on either side as necessary. I've calculated that I will have 5% more jacks than I currently need, so hopefully that will last a little while. Whats making this so large scale is the number of outputs on some of the synths. Several have stereo L/R plus six or eight individual outs, which I plan to make available in the bays so I don't have to climb behind the racks later to reconfigure. Make everything available at the console table and pick what i want with a cord.

Pizza, beer, and rosin flux smoke. Sounds like a plan... [/B]

Heh-heh You're right, I just need more solderers so I'm not doing this for an eternity. Anyway, I did find a guy that sells new moulded TT patch cords for about 4 bucks a pop in 18" length using starquad mogomi cable, and while I hate moulded cable, I might pick up a few just to see if they are worth anything. If not, I'll go with the normal neutrik cables and spend the high dollars for a box of patch cords.

 

[skippy]

Race car fabricator, eh? Very cool: one of my many other fatal character flaws is that I also like to play with track toys. For the last decade or so I've been focusing my attention on suspension development and braking system design for road racing, mostly.

Studio wiring and race car fabrication have more in common than most people would believe: to a large extent, they are both studies in the control and prevention of fatigue failures. The one cardinal rule of race car building is that there is no such thing as a part that can be safely bolted on and forgotten about: everything has a fatigue life, and everything _will_ fail eventually, right down to the most trivial part. Winning cars are prepared by people who know that, and plan for it. The life span and weak spots of everything needs to be understood, and things get inspected and replaced before they have a chance to fail.

Well, the wiring plant for a studio is one huge fatigue failure waiting to happen, and happen it will- right when it will piss off the maximum number of people. So you plan for it, try to prevent it as much a humanly possible, and make it maintainable so that when it _does_ happen, the downtime is minimized. I strap my multicore down in the racks the same way I strap down the electrics in the car, in fact... The studio gear may not get shaken nearly as hard, but it still gets heat-cycled, rattled, pried, and plugged and unplugged: lower stresses, but many more stress cycles over the life of the room. Same deal, pretty much.

It's not quite the same in one way, though. It *is* nice that failures in the studio simply make silence, the crunchies, or a hum. That's vastly preferable to the quick trip into the tirewall that usually results when the car breaks!

 

[frederic]

Actually, I may switch cable choices, I may have zeroed in on Marshall Electronics cable which I have been told is made by Mogami for much less, so I'll let everyone know how that pans out.

Race car fabricator, eh? Very cool: one of my many other fatal character flaws is that I also like to play with track toys. For the last decade or so I've been focusing my attention on suspension development and braking system design for road racing, mostly.

Cool. I spent 2 years designing my from-scratch mid-engine suspension, and still had to weld in adjustable mounting points to ensure I could make it right. Corvette front/rear spindles and DIY tubular tubing with spherical bearings, designed similar to the Ford GT40 with long trailing arms from the rear firewall.

Studio wiring and race car fabrication have more in common than most people would believe: to a large extent, they are both studies in the control and prevention of fatigue failures. The one cardinal rule of race car building is that there is no such thing as a part that can be safely bolted on and forgotten about: everything has a fatigue life, and everything _will_ fail eventually, right down to the most trivial part. Winning cars are prepared by people who know that, and plan for it. The life span and weak spots of everything needs to be understood, and things get inspected and replaced before they have a chance to fail.

Yes, I totally agree. Add into that the shuffling of equipment somewhat often, I expect cable problems,a nd trying to be proactive.

Regarding walls, I've hit a few, and through injury become the 1/2 million dollar man. No pneumatics though, just ceramics and lots of screws in strange places.