Cheap Mic Pre's-What Am I Missing?

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crawdad

crawdad

Dammit, Jim, Shut Up!
I have not had the luxury of owning a hi end mic pre. I've got stuff like mackie mixers, Tube MP's and even a Behringer Ultra Voice Pro--its all inexpensive stuff. To my ear, there is very little if any difference between any of them--unless I start cranking the tube gain or something. Going for clean in and out, they all seem to give the same quality.

So, what will an expensive pre-amp give me that I am missing now? I hear words such as clarity, detail and depth used to describe some of these high dollar units. Is it a night and day difference or just a slight improvement? I realise this is a very general question that may depend on which high end mic pre we are discussing, but I think you get my drift.

I'm 50, and I know my hearing is not what it once was. Still, I have to engineer stuff all the time and my clients are very happy with my work. Although I have been doing recording for years (on a budget) I am always trying to improve my skills and knowledge. So, I am curious to hear from those of you who have experience with these units.
 
The preamp is widely regarded as one of the most vital, if not the most vital, components of the signal chain. I've never owned anything emensely expensive, but I have been told it is one of those things you can't cut corners on.

Lots of good discussions on this topics. Here are some more recent contributions. Empty Planet makes some good points:

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=42812&highlight=preamp

And I had a few things to say about cheap ones here:

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=42985&highlight=Korg+and+preamp
 
Thank you Chessrock. I will read those threads and get back. I understand the importance of the pre-amp, but have no way of comparing what I've got to the big stuff. In the end, my question will be "when do the quality differences end, and at what price?"
 
i dont think the quality differences end too soon....where your decisions come down to is price performance ratio....say you listen to a preamp that costs $200 and one that costs $400.....the $400 sounds better, but not twice as good....so do you wanna go that far?......

these questions can only be answered be you....you have to get a sound you are satisfied with and a price you are satidfied with......
 
There are certainly a couple of schools of thought on this issue.

1) School one: Either spend $200, or spend $2,000. Nothing in between will give you any noticeable difference.

I think Mackie played a big role in this theory. The VLZ-pros became so popular among amateurs and semi-pros a few years back. This kind of caused a race about a year or so ago (and we're still seeing it) of people who have had their Mackies for a while, and are wondering if there is a "step up" from their onboard pres at a reasonable price range.

Meanwhile, Mackie's marketing department continues to work around the clock trying to convince people their pre's are as good as Manleys and Neves. :) So anyway, a bunch of companies started flooding the market with pres in the $500-$1000 range to meet this demand. Focusrite tried it with the Green Series (and now the Platinum), while DBX followed suit with the Silver series, and the list goes on. Unfortunately, this turned out to be a disaster for those companies, as they were 1) still too expensive for the "prosumer," and 2) Still not any better than the Mackies to most people's ears.

Meanwhile, Joemeek kind of outsmarted everyone and took a large chunk of the market in the process. They achieved this not by offering a better pre, but by offering a better package that made the pre sound better. Many people listened to it, and assumed it was a superior preamp. What they didn't realize is that it was actually the very unique-sounding compressor that they liked.

The only company to really step up to the plate and offer a superior product at a reasonable price point is Grace Design. Let me share a story: There is a music store in the North suburbs of Chicago called Gand Music. They are the supreme gear snobs if ever there were gear snobs. One day, I felt a little saucy, and decided to give them a call. It took all my strength to hold back my laughter as I asked if they had any Audio Buddies or ART MP's on hand. :) Then for fun I threw out DBX, Joemeek, and a few others. Their response was something like "We only carry REAL preamps here." Translation: "You don't have the money to be talking to us."

He then proceeded to tell me that good preamps simply aren't made for any less than $1000 per channel and bla bla bla bla bla. Then I asked "How about the Grace Design?" Dead silence. "Hello?" He then said "Uh, the Grace Designs are good."

I then said "But those are $600, and you said . . . "

"The Grace is a good pre," he interupted.

Well, in my estimation, if Gand isn't too snobbish for a Grace, then there must be something to these things.

The only reason it isn't "Gracing" home studios everywhere at the moment is twofold, imho: 1) It's probably about $100 over that magical pricepoint of $500. 2) Everyone seems to be holding their breaths on this RNMP, hoping it will be their savior.

If this thing receives anything less than stellar reviews from the Recording rags and the Harvey's of the world, I think you'll see a reprise of interest in the Grace Design, which could just help it achieve a more "legendary" status among the recording world. I know I'll be one of the first to grab one. I may yet, as it seems I'll probably be in a retirement home by the time the rnmp is released.

It could get interesting, though.
 
My best advice... get with someplace that will let you return the stuff after a 72 hour trial period, track a project with it, and see for yourself. I suggest Mercenary.com or vintage king. At mercenary, try the Great RIver MP2-NV, and Vintage King, try the Chandler 1073 Neve copy.
If you dont like it, or dont see the point, send it back. You'll like you kicks, snares and guitars MUCH better, I'll bet.
 
I'd say use what you've got until the RNMP is finally available.
 
Crawdad,

A few days ago, we did a small test in the studio I work for. We wanted to decide if it is possible to use a Soundcraft Spirit Live console we got our hands on for recording, as well as monitoring.
We recorded a few sentences with a SM-57 hooked up to the Spirit, with no EQ, and then recorded at the same gain and setting with the Behringer we are always using. The results were almost identicle. Both sounded perfectly good, with the Behringer sounding a little brighter.
Afterwards, we recorded another test with our Neve pre-amp.
The difference was night and day. The sound is so much clearer, that yuo just want to rub a bank right at this minute and buy 50 of these Neves.

Oren
 
I'm not affiliated so this is not spam. May I suggest a visit to 3daudioinc.com? If you're curious enough to spend $40, you may purchase their mic-pre shootout CD, which tests many high, mid and low price options. Many have expressed surprise at what they learned, and changed their purchase plans accordingly. This is assuming that you are currently more interested in discovery than purchase plans. HTH.
-kent
 
chessrock said:
There are certainly a couple of schools of thought on this issue.

1) School one: Either spend $200, or spend $2,000. Nothing in between will give you any noticeable difference.
Click to expand...

Whats school two?
 
School Two is to spend somewhere between $201 and $1,999.

Actually, the Great River MP-2 is a wonderful preamp and is pretty much the big value leader these days.
 
more thoughts and questions

Thanks to all for the input so far. A few questions:

1) Is the mythical RNTP a venture of the company that makes the RNC? I visited their web site and could find no mention of it.

2) Does anybody here use a DMP3? Its like $200 but they make it sound like it ought to be more like $800!

3)Has anybody actually built a Neve pre from scratch? If so, where is the info on such a project?

4) I am leaning towards getting a pair of the Neve's. Where would I go to research my options?

A couple of thoughts:

I used to write songs in Nashville. The publishing company was at a studio called the Music Mill. They were one of 3 in the world at the time that had a new Focusrite console. I asked a producer there why the Focusrite was so incredible. His layman's explanation was that the high end frequency response went up to something like 300Kh(?). Although we couldn't hear that high, he said it gave things much more air and space, which made the mixes sound much better. Is this kind of what we are talking about with the high end mic pre's?

This board is a godsend! The best info I have found and a wealth of knowledge from great people in search of quality. I thank you all for your help and hope I can return the favor in some way down the road.

Meanwhile, I am off to read up on some of the suggested pres.
 
Re: more thoughts and questions

crawdad said:
Thanks to all for the input so far. A few questions:

1) Is the mythical RNMP a venture of the company that makes the RNC? I visited their web site and could find no mention of it.

FMR Audio makes the RNC and they're coming out with the RNMP in a couple of weeks. Mark McQuillken is sending out 20 pre-production units to check for any last minute screwups or needed changes. Why he's sending me one of those 20 is still a mystery to me, but I'm not gonna say anything, having been born at least one notch above totally stupid.

2) Does anybody here use a DMP3? Its like $200 but they make it sound like it ought to be more like $800!

Haven't heard it.

3)Has anybody actually built a Neve pre from scratch? If so, where is the info on such a project?

There are some Neve "schematics" and DIY projects floating around on the web, but from all I've been able to gather, the schematics are wrong.

4) I am leaning towards getting a pair of the Neve's. Where would I go to research my options?

The "best" source would be to talk to Geoff Tanner (phoenixaudio@earthlink.net) , one of the original Neve employees who is still producing the original Neve pres.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for the info, Harvey! Well, hearing the news about the RNMP, I definitely want to wait until I hear the reviews on the product. FMR did such a nice job on the RNC--maybe they have another hit on their hands.
 
This might seem like another stupid question, but here goes:

Let's say I record a track with an expensive pre-amp and microphone into 24 bit digital. If I play back that track through a Mackie mixer, will the signal be degraded back to Mackie pre-amp specs? Will I lose the magic that the high end pre-amp just gave me?
 
I dont think that grace is marketing the 101 well enough.

With all that I've heard about it, it should be a household name already.

those guys that say that expensive pres are worth having have a good point. I like my sytek, which is about $700 used, but I can still hear what it does to mics. It has a certain color that is not as proffessional as, say a neve or an API. I wont be surprised if a $1200 pre makes all the difference in the world.


But for now, for under a grand, my vote goes to joemeek.
 
Yes and no. First, unless I'm missing something (which is quite possible) I don't think you'd want to run a line-level output back through a mic pre in the Mackie. Second, if your output passes through any device, there is potential for some loss of sound quality.

These are reasons to own a high-end board if you're going to mix and master in analog. If $7,000 isn't out of your reach, our moderator is selling his Trident MTA 924 compact 24 channel 24 bus console (was $13,990 list) in virtually new condition, and it's a steal at that price. Drop him a line if you'd like more information.

A lot of people think "once it's in digital, leave it there," but pros tend to want to work in analog. Boomtown Studios in Sausalito, for instance, built the Trident MTA 924 into their console right alongside their dedicated ProTools board, so they could have the best of both worlds. It just depends what you want to do.

I found the $110 set of 3 test CDs from 3DAudioinc.com very useful despite the obvious limitations of any such test. However, careful listening can help steer you in the right direction, and I'm confident that I've saved far more than $110 already from having them on hand. Since I live in a relatively rural area, I don't have the luxury of auditioning microphones and microphone preamps at stores or studios before I buy.

Best wishes,

Mark H.
 
Harvey,you know we'll all be very anxious to hear what you think of the RNMP (it'll be nice to hear your opinion rather than some bias magazine review).I can't believe how many people are waiting for its release.

BTW,you haven't had a chance to try the Audio Buddy have you?Reason I ask is on another board someone was swearing that the DMP is the same pre as the Audio Buddy with more bells and whistles.I have my doubts about that but I don't know one way or the other.
 
Randy Yell said:
Harvey,you know we'll all be very anxious to hear what you think of the RNMP (it'll be nice to hear your opinion rather than some bias magazine review).I can't believe how many people are waiting for its release.

BTW,you haven't had a chance to try the Audio Buddy have you?Reason I ask is on another board someone was swearing that the DMP is the same pre as the Audio Buddy with more bells and whistles.I have my doubts about that but I don't know one way or the other.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I'm very curious how close Mark came to hitting his goal on this baby. I don't have any thoughts about it right now, one way or the other.

No, I haven't tried the Audio Buddy since Alex brought it back, but I hope to. I've "heard" it doesn't meet specs on phantom power output, or on total gain, but I'll know when I hook it up and test it.
 
Harvey Gerst said:
School Two is to spend somewhere between $201 and $1,999.

Actually, the Great River MP-2 is a wonderful preamp and is pretty much the big value leader these days.
Click to expand...

---------------

True, but unfortunately, that still falls a little closer to the $2,000 range (when rounding up) we were discussing for a home or small studio to use the word "value leader" when discussing it. I'm sure it's a great bang-for-the buck unit if you have that kind of buck!

A single channel version, however, just might have the potential to become a staple for the home rec'er. Hmmm.

Now I'm only reporting based on observations and not experience, so take this with a grain of salt. I have heard gear snobs talk highly of the Grace and recommend it. And it's a $600 piece of gear. And normally, gear snobs are too busy sticking their noses in the air at $600 anything to admit it is good.

That says something to me.

Havey, I think there might be something to this DMP-3. Normally, I'm not one to add to the barage of people you probably get daily, begging you to review everything under the sun. But I have a feeling about it. I'm sure someone on this board would be happy to part with one of their DMP2's, at least, for a few weeks and lend one to you.
 
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