Changing the nut

[CoolCat]

What is the most common reason to change the nut?

Is there really a noticeable tone difference between materials such as bone, tusque, plastic, brass, <enter material here>?

 

[crazydoc]

I've made nuts for guitars that came without them, or were broken. The only reason I've changed a nut is to change the string spacing (on a Yamaha FG-150 - too narrow for me.) Of course, the neck has to be able to accommodate the change.

 

[muttley600]

What is the most common reason to change the nut?

Is there really a noticeable tone difference between materials such as bone, tusque, plastic, brass, <enter material here>?

To replace orrid plastic with bone is the most common reason. Other reasons. Old nut slots messed up, changing string gauges from heavy to lighter, there are plenty of other reasons. The difference in tone can be dramatic, depending on the guitar. Go with bone everytime if you have a choice.

 

[ggunn]

To replace orrid plastic with bone is the most common reason. Other reasons. Old nut slots messed up, changing string gauges from heavy to lighter, there are plenty of other reasons. The difference in tone can be dramatic, depending on the guitar. Go with bone everytime if you have a choice.

And do NOT(!) put a brass nut on a Strat with tremelo bar.

 

[CoolCat]

bone nut ... yes, sounds fun. alright.

whats a common price for this job and how long would it take a shop?

 

[muttley600]

bone nut ... yes, sounds fun. alright.

whats a common price for this job and how long would it take a shop?

The materials cost a few £'s or $'s and you've got 1 maybe 2 hours labour for someone that has done a few and knows what they are doing. Takes me about an hour plus a bit for setup and stringing. Cost depends on the guys overhead and reputation. I don't charge full rate for em as good work on stuff like this leads to more work and recommendations. £25 tops. depending on how fiddly the setup is after the new nut, intonation etc. You also have to cost in a new set of strings on top of that.

 

[CoolCat]

25 euro... $36US

i got quoted $60 and 5 days standard wait estimate.

its a cheap guitar but a very nice player. I'm thinking a nut and saddles could give it even more subtle improvements.

hmm? do you put $60 into a $100 guitar that plays fine, and originally cost $250
its a tele type nut .135 thk, about 1.65" length....sets "in" the neck.
last time I trashed out a really nice cheap guitar thinking I could do a fret repair leveling because I read a few internet articles...

 

[muttley600]

25 euro... $36US

i got quoted $60 and 5 days standard wait estimate.

its a cheap guitar but a very nice player. I'm thinking a nut and saddles could give it even more subtle improvements.

hmm? do you put $60 into a $100 guitar that plays fine, and originally cost $250
its a tele type nut .135 thk, about 1.65" length....sets "in" the neck.
last time I trashed out a really nice cheap guitar thinking I could do a fret repair leveling because I read a few internet articles...

No £25 thats around £50 dollars plus strings and taxes for you guys..

I quote at least a 5 days as I work them into quiet moments in the production shop when other stuff is clamped up or the like. For any sort of production shop to do stuff like that is never going to be a payer. A repair shop is a different matter. I do them on the setup bench and they wait their turn. My regular setup customers get their setups done first cos I deliver and collect EVERY month. I find as long as I'm upfront and honest with people they can live with it.

It's easier for me to work them into the production shop work flow.

 

[crazydoc]

25 euro... $36US

i got quoted $60 and 5 days standard wait estimate.

its a cheap guitar but a very nice player. I'm thinking a nut and saddles could give it even more subtle improvements.

hmm? do you put $60 into a $100 guitar that plays fine, and originally cost $250
its a tele type nut .135 thk, about 1.65" length....sets "in" the neck.
last time I trashed out a really nice cheap guitar thinking I could do a fret repair leveling because I read a few internet articles...

Making a nut has fewer variables than leveling frets, so you might want to give it a try. A bone nut blank is less than $5 - more if you want it pre-shaped.
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Nuts,_saddles/String_nuts/White_Bone_Nuts.html

You need sandpaper, some time, and you can make do with a set of needle files from Harbor Freight or some such for under $5 (though nut files are nicer for the job, they're pretty pricey.)
Here's the instructions - have at it.
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Setup/NewNut/newnut1.html

And, you don't have to destroy the old nut - if you screw up, just put it back in.

 

[muttley600]

Have a go yourself by all means. A couple of points to mention that a lot of times even so called decent setup shops struggle to get right.

The strings should have the same gap between each, so the centres are not equal divisions.

Frank Fords pencil marking tip is a good one, I was taught it years ago. I was also taught that the depth of the string slots should just about touch that line. The nut slots should sit at the same height as the fret. Even decent shops get this one wrong. The nut is in effect just another fret.

You will struggle to get a really good nut slot without the right files, it can be done but the results can often be sloppy. I like to have just under half the string sunk into the nut. The slot should be rounded at the bottom and just a fraction greater in diametre than the string.

The string should break over the nut with contact on the entire surface of the bone until it leaves for the tuner. The break at the face of the nut should be sharp and precise.

All these details will help you get good intonation and no creaking or buzzes. You can practice all this on scrap before you attempt it on your bone blanks.

Finally and importantly the fine dust from the bone is potentially harmful keep it out of your lungs with one or two efforts you'll not likely to do yourself harm but better safe than sorry..

 

[mrface2112]

a coworker of mine used to build guitars for PRS in the prefactory days and he put a bone nut on my 88 tele for a case of coors light.

the difference in tone and overall sustain is, quite frankly, remarkable. not to mention, now there's no "pinging" when tuning up and the guitar NEVER goes out of tune.

i'd say that if it's a guitar that you LOVE to play, it's worth it. it's one of those "minor differences" that adds up over the course of doing them. you know, swapping pickups, good string saddles, that sort of thing......if you make enough 5% improvements, it's easy to get to 15% or 20% better. although i'd say that a bone nut is a lot more like a 20% improvement.....or at least it was on my tele.

i need to get him to do one for my strat.....but stewmac doesn't carry precarved 12in radius blanks.


cheers,
wade

 

[Light]

What is the most common reason to change the nut?

Is there really a noticeable tone difference between materials such as bone, tusque, plastic, brass, <enter material here>?

The most common reason to replace a nut is they are plastic, which can pinch the string and cause tuning problems, or because they are worn out.

There is a minor difference in sound between plastic and bone, but it is ONLY on open strings. It is not a good reason to change a nut. Bone does wear better, however, which is more important.

Other materials are fine, if you like the look, but I know guys who will not change a bone nut if the customer comes in looking for a change of tone. We just try to talk people out of it, but if they insist, we'll take their money, but tell them not to expect it to be some extreme make over for their guitar's sound. What ever the idiots on the internet might tell say, it won't.

We charge $80-100 bucks for the labor, and another $10 for the material. Unless someone asks for something else, we use nothing but unbleached bone, as it is a bit harder than bleached bone (oh, and it looks cool too). Brass is sticky, and plastic wears really fast which causes it to pinch. On guitars which would have had them originally, we have a stash of legal ivory which we will use (at $100 a blank). Mostly, that just goes on old Martins, but I actually prefer bone nuts and saddles. We only use ivory for the collector value, and we always give our customers a choice between the two when the guitar warrants it (and they frequently chose bone).


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[CoolCat]

it's one of those "minor differences" that adds up over the course of doing them. you know, swapping pickups, good string saddles, that sort of thing......if you make enough 5% improvements, it's easy to get to 15% or 20% better.

I always had that theory too.
like race cars and the tiny improvement here, and another over there until the mechanics got that extra RPM or Horse power... I fugure the drivers are just crazy mofo's that like speed and don't have a fear of running cars into cement walls...

like fine tuning a room....5% here, 10% there...

my plastic nut is new, so its not causing problems, this is more of a "cool 5%" tweak.

and then the saddles and things are less risky imo...from destroying the guitar.

and as crazydoc said... I can put the old one back in as insurance. think I'll take a drive down to the old store, they have some bone blanks.

I could cheat and have the retired machinists at work match my bones to the plastic-stock nut. hmmm?

really, really interesting comment on the nut being "a fret"...makes logical sense, and the intonation being due to the bend distance etc... whooa, a lot of tiny details that can screw up a guitar...



ok- edit...went and no radius matches. one Fender style Tusque at 9.5" or so radius....another detail!! this is why the forums are good, so anyway its not pop & swap.

Its probably well worth the $60, the more one learns. The dewd at the counter says he pays to have his done.

someone said it once...people spend 20yrs learning how to play guitar and for some reason they think they can be a luthier after reading a few website articles....hahhaa..so true!,,

i'm glad and proud of myself this time though. I didn't trash out my guitar first and then start seeing if they had the parts in town.

 

[Micter]

I charge $35 to carve a nut plus material (cost of nut blank). It usually ends up at about $40.

 

[muttley600]

ok- edit...went and no radius matches. one Fender style Tusque at 9.5" or so radius....another detail!! this is why the forums are good, so anyway its not pop & swap.

Yep, because no two nuts are/should be the same. (can't believe I just wrote that :-O ) You could buy an off the shelf nut that might be close but you'd still have some work to do setting it up.