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zero00
New member
Well, i think that there's a splash a little too loud... to me the guitars are a little low in volume... when the guitar do the same as the bass at the end... you could put the guitar in the right or left or even double it, it'll sound cool.
I was waiting for the vocals... they never came!!! hahaha...
The bass, kicks and snares sounds very good to me. Very clear. Well the guitar too but a little low how a said before.
I was waiting for the vocals... they never came!!! hahaha...
The bass, kicks and snares sounds very good to me. Very clear. Well the guitar too but a little low how a said before.
jeffmaher
New member
Drums are narrow, guitar 1 is R, Guit 2 is close to ctr...and bass is at or near ctr....along w bassdr and snr
What is going to go L, other than the effect that flies over there occasionally?
The sounds are unusual...not bad...like you're on-purpose out-of-the-box. But they're clustered. Lopsided R. I don't know what else you plan to put on there.
If I had to do something to improve it as-is, I'd spread the kit 20% L&R...nothing on the same slot...L to R: Ride 20%L BD 10%L SNR ctr crash 10%R HH 20%r...for example
Gt1 L to same degree as gt2 is on the other side.
And try moving the bassgt to where it sounds good, and balances any L or R bias.
Then I'd try a small room verb..or a slap-back.. dry up gt R
Caveat: I am a recording moron.
What is going to go L, other than the effect that flies over there occasionally?
The sounds are unusual...not bad...like you're on-purpose out-of-the-box. But they're clustered. Lopsided R. I don't know what else you plan to put on there.
If I had to do something to improve it as-is, I'd spread the kit 20% L&R...nothing on the same slot...L to R: Ride 20%L BD 10%L SNR ctr crash 10%R HH 20%r...for example
Gt1 L to same degree as gt2 is on the other side.
And try moving the bassgt to where it sounds good, and balances any L or R bias.
Then I'd try a small room verb..or a slap-back.. dry up gt R
Caveat: I am a recording moron.
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stupidfatnugly
New member
that is very helpful and the vocals are about 1/2 recorded so maybe I 'll put some up tomorrow
thanks
thanks
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stupidfatnugly
New member
OK i NUDGED the snare and kick barely to left and right but those need to stay in center as I understand.
I put guitars at 50 left and 50 right. I thought your bass guitar needs to stay in center also, so I left it there.
I doubled guitars; so do I have to nudge one of them or just EQ them differently? also I tried doubling the bass before and that sounded crappy. y'all don't do that, do you?
what about overkill on doubling vocals? I don't sing that well so I find me doubling, tripling and sometimes quadrupling. But, I try to stay with just one double.
PLEASE LISTEN AGAIN. I GOT SOME VOCALS UP NOW
jeffmaher
New member
Sort of B52's meets Dave Byrne!
I've read some stuff about bassdr and snr in the middle, etc.
But when I'm in a room with a group playing...standind infront of a kit, I don't hear that. The bassdr tends to sound center..but the snare, and other pieces, being higher, seem to come from other focus-points..displaced by the mixture of reflections that mix with the origin, closer to ear-level. If I'm, say , a dozen feet from a kit...just in front of the band, and the kit is, say, six feet wide, that spreads the kit to about 20 to 30 degrees L&R . The snare doesn't align with the BD. And I've never seen a kit assembled on top of a bass speaker..or bass player. 'Taint nach'l. When I add verbs to a kit, I do everything but the BD, trying to make the top spread the way it does in the 'room' I imagine by mixing up with reflectons.
Your record is stacked and loaded for bear in the middle 40 degrees of field. The outside stuff is weak...and there's little at the extremes...say 66 deg and out. The very high levels in the bass and BD and snare and vox all in the ctr are like a black hole, sucking attention from the small room or chamber verb you got. Little escapes it. I had to check to see if I had my monitor preamp set to 'mono'. There's not a whole lot of difference going to stereo...a lot of potential for 'ear candy' unused.
What I like to do is go listen to live music and close my eyes and listen to what I hear..and try to identify and replicate that stuff in my mixes and verbs. it's one approach. the other....which you adhere to, is another...and used as a template on a lot of successful records. But not all records are like that.
To me, spreading each part of the kit and other instrumentation to different slots reflects the natural presentation of music with real life setups.
It's funner to hear, too, I think.
I have an mp3 file for Etta James' "At Last" [from about 1964?] sitting on my desktop...a song I gotta learn for a wedding gig.
The band is panned all nearly hard left. The strings and orchestra, hard R. Etta's in the middle. Totally wierd....but very much what you'd hear on a pro sound stage...where the musicians set up that way. It was a hit record. Try different things. Go with what you like, I think.
http://www.yousendit.com/download/MnFqMWZOUnE4aU1LSkE9PQ
This is Etta..check it out. Made me say "Hmmmmmmmm" The whole kit is L..and spread, using the reflection from the other side of the room. Very strange The string bass is way over on the L!! Just whack! But this is one of the most clearly defined virtual "rooms" I ever heard recorded. Opened my mind a lot. And there's some pan-magic to appreciate....some of the violas and cellos in the orchestra start out close to ctr then scootch over to the rest of the fellas in the string section to make room for Etta. There's a lot to learn from these ex-military Korean War era vet recording engineers* who moved the industry from mono to stereo. I mean, SH*TTT!!!!
[Don LaFontaine was one. He and this other guy I met, Roland , started the very first Production Music Library in NY after the war. They'd spent their hitches in the military recording military bands and orchestras. He and Don would record TV, radio, film and pop stuff under contract. Don paid the musicians, and after the session, he'd let tape roll and tell them just to play some stuff. He compiled the resulting tracks, and started licensing the cuts out to media producers. The "McDonald's" of the recording industry was born with these 'audio floors' Don picked up when the players still had a half hour obligation after a session was wrapped. They were ad hoc compositions that Don had exclusive rights to, under 'music for hire' tenets. Smart dude! A little history lesson just for fun. If you don't know who Don LaFontaine is, I know you've heard him...google him! :^)
I've read some stuff about bassdr and snr in the middle, etc.
But when I'm in a room with a group playing...standind infront of a kit, I don't hear that. The bassdr tends to sound center..but the snare, and other pieces, being higher, seem to come from other focus-points..displaced by the mixture of reflections that mix with the origin, closer to ear-level. If I'm, say , a dozen feet from a kit...just in front of the band, and the kit is, say, six feet wide, that spreads the kit to about 20 to 30 degrees L&R . The snare doesn't align with the BD. And I've never seen a kit assembled on top of a bass speaker..or bass player. 'Taint nach'l. When I add verbs to a kit, I do everything but the BD, trying to make the top spread the way it does in the 'room' I imagine by mixing up with reflectons.
Your record is stacked and loaded for bear in the middle 40 degrees of field. The outside stuff is weak...and there's little at the extremes...say 66 deg and out. The very high levels in the bass and BD and snare and vox all in the ctr are like a black hole, sucking attention from the small room or chamber verb you got. Little escapes it. I had to check to see if I had my monitor preamp set to 'mono'. There's not a whole lot of difference going to stereo...a lot of potential for 'ear candy' unused.
What I like to do is go listen to live music and close my eyes and listen to what I hear..and try to identify and replicate that stuff in my mixes and verbs. it's one approach. the other....which you adhere to, is another...and used as a template on a lot of successful records. But not all records are like that.
To me, spreading each part of the kit and other instrumentation to different slots reflects the natural presentation of music with real life setups.
It's funner to hear, too, I think.
I have an mp3 file for Etta James' "At Last" [from about 1964?] sitting on my desktop...a song I gotta learn for a wedding gig.
The band is panned all nearly hard left. The strings and orchestra, hard R. Etta's in the middle. Totally wierd....but very much what you'd hear on a pro sound stage...where the musicians set up that way. It was a hit record. Try different things. Go with what you like, I think.
http://www.yousendit.com/download/MnFqMWZOUnE4aU1LSkE9PQ
This is Etta..check it out. Made me say "Hmmmmmmmm" The whole kit is L..and spread, using the reflection from the other side of the room. Very strange The string bass is way over on the L!! Just whack! But this is one of the most clearly defined virtual "rooms" I ever heard recorded. Opened my mind a lot. And there's some pan-magic to appreciate....some of the violas and cellos in the orchestra start out close to ctr then scootch over to the rest of the fellas in the string section to make room for Etta. There's a lot to learn from these ex-military Korean War era vet recording engineers* who moved the industry from mono to stereo. I mean, SH*TTT!!!!
[Don LaFontaine was one. He and this other guy I met, Roland , started the very first Production Music Library in NY after the war. They'd spent their hitches in the military recording military bands and orchestras. He and Don would record TV, radio, film and pop stuff under contract. Don paid the musicians, and after the session, he'd let tape roll and tell them just to play some stuff. He compiled the resulting tracks, and started licensing the cuts out to media producers. The "McDonald's" of the recording industry was born with these 'audio floors' Don picked up when the players still had a half hour obligation after a session was wrapped. They were ad hoc compositions that Don had exclusive rights to, under 'music for hire' tenets. Smart dude! A little history lesson just for fun. If you don't know who Don LaFontaine is, I know you've heard him...google him! :^)
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stupidfatnugly
New member
so standing in front of the kit would put the snare a bit to the right and symbols to the left, right?
so I'll pan my snare to about 10% to the right at most. how far should I put my symbols out and what should I put outside of 66%?
I don't understand degrees. I can pan up to 100% or like at 3 o'clock or so; are you talking about something different?
If I had to choose the bass and vox are the most important thing I want heard; so should I bring down the BD and snare volumes? Or what do you suggest to fix this problem? Is the small room verb not right for this song?
I don't like def leppard-stadium rock.
appreciate it Jeff
jeffmaher
New member
My particular pan function pans 100% right or left from center. when I say that the middle 40 is stacked, I mean 20% on either side of center. I know you said you have the guits out at 50%, but they sound a lot closer to me??
I imagine myself standing in front of a kit...at a particular distance, and pan based on rough location in my mind. My personal theory is that a 3% difference between a snare and bassdrum has significant value in a final mix, and lends another scootch to the good for overall clarity. As I said, bass drum tends to sound where it is; but higher frequency and physically-located upper componants take a lot more cues from whatever room they play in.
Then I tweak after that to see what sounds good or even better.
My own stock mix is vox center. [only thing there] Drums spread in the middle 44 to 66 degrees [22% to 33% right to left] with the SNARE within 3 degrees of the center, and the kit expanded from there. I place bass guitar slightly to the left of the kit...that's mainly because I can't hear bass very well with my right ear...and seems to be what most live acts do, most of the time. When I played bass, that's where I used to prefer standing: I heard more kick to cue my own figures...and heard less HH and snare.
I pan doubled electric guitar from 50% to 100% of center...and move them to a place where they seem like a part of the band, and 'fit' my imaginary picture. Ear-candy things like cowbell, conga, etc...usually panned near or hard R&L. Then I tweak the whole mix to sound its best, and try to get the levels of everything playing together to equalize the R & L channels...give and take...split hairs. After that, it's what sounds best.
But, like in that file I sent....what sounds good or best can be way of the 'standard' reservation!!!
What I meant about the small room verb was that it was largely ineffective...the strength of the center being so prominant. I could barely hear the outer reflections...so the illusion was insufficient.
Now, understand, I'm new to all this stuff, with not more than four years of killing audio tracks dead. Maybe, spurred to action by my stupidity in concept, a real engineer will make some adjustments, or toss my theories into the bin for your benefit. [and mine]
But what I do know is that each recordist gets something to work...and obtains a unique signature and style. When I go to church, I close my eyes when the band plays, and the people sing around me. I analyze, and try to reverse-imagine that I'm listening to a mix: where is everything? What are the frequencies...how to they change with distance? What is the level and effect of the room-sound? That's where I want to get. Sort of a 'realist'.
But surreal is good, too.
Record every day. Try things. Dare to be unique. Keep your ears 'on' and listen to your environment. Get away from a project for as long as it takes to hear it fresh. And, then, sometimes, better ways of presenting the mix just whack y' upside the head.
I imagine myself standing in front of a kit...at a particular distance, and pan based on rough location in my mind. My personal theory is that a 3% difference between a snare and bassdrum has significant value in a final mix, and lends another scootch to the good for overall clarity. As I said, bass drum tends to sound where it is; but higher frequency and physically-located upper componants take a lot more cues from whatever room they play in.
Then I tweak after that to see what sounds good or even better.
My own stock mix is vox center. [only thing there] Drums spread in the middle 44 to 66 degrees [22% to 33% right to left] with the SNARE within 3 degrees of the center, and the kit expanded from there. I place bass guitar slightly to the left of the kit...that's mainly because I can't hear bass very well with my right ear...and seems to be what most live acts do, most of the time. When I played bass, that's where I used to prefer standing: I heard more kick to cue my own figures...and heard less HH and snare.
I pan doubled electric guitar from 50% to 100% of center...and move them to a place where they seem like a part of the band, and 'fit' my imaginary picture. Ear-candy things like cowbell, conga, etc...usually panned near or hard R&L. Then I tweak the whole mix to sound its best, and try to get the levels of everything playing together to equalize the R & L channels...give and take...split hairs. After that, it's what sounds best.
But, like in that file I sent....what sounds good or best can be way of the 'standard' reservation!!!
What I meant about the small room verb was that it was largely ineffective...the strength of the center being so prominant. I could barely hear the outer reflections...so the illusion was insufficient.
Now, understand, I'm new to all this stuff, with not more than four years of killing audio tracks dead. Maybe, spurred to action by my stupidity in concept, a real engineer will make some adjustments, or toss my theories into the bin for your benefit. [and mine]
But what I do know is that each recordist gets something to work...and obtains a unique signature and style. When I go to church, I close my eyes when the band plays, and the people sing around me. I analyze, and try to reverse-imagine that I'm listening to a mix: where is everything? What are the frequencies...how to they change with distance? What is the level and effect of the room-sound? That's where I want to get. Sort of a 'realist'.
But surreal is good, too.
Record every day. Try things. Dare to be unique. Keep your ears 'on' and listen to your environment. Get away from a project for as long as it takes to hear it fresh. And, then, sometimes, better ways of presenting the mix just whack y' upside the head.
jeffmaher
New member
Whatever you did, it's working. So much better to my ears. On the headphones, the mix and EQ is powerful in the bottom. On monitors, it's a tad too overpowering.....guess it depends on your desired effect, at this point. But I think I do detect a bit of clipping? A little too hot??
Anyway, yes...there's a much better image coming through. An imaginary space.....the mind's eye has to wander left and right to 'see' the various players and instruments. That's really a good thing , I think. It's a nice, balanced spead.
The guits at 75 are really a nice change.
On another front, i know this is a wirk in-progress...so I'd like to make a suggestion:
The vamp between vocal parts has everything very busy. Nice. But there is one element that could really knit some parts of it together, make for a lot of additional interest, and, maybe, even provide the big hook:
A real tacky [B52's] synth melody or two or three note device, using the same lydian b7 mode that is the 'out' signature of the piece. And that mode has endless possibilities for crafting interesting sounds, through, and on top of , the root chord...a superimposition of a progression using the diatonic chords..or the outlining of the same using notes of C lyd b7. Outer-space pomp. And not a 'busy' thing: longer, sustained notes and chords to counter the chop of the vamp. And heavy accent on the tritone between F# and Bb. [provided it is in key of C...that's it, right?]
Anyway, yes...there's a much better image coming through. An imaginary space.....the mind's eye has to wander left and right to 'see' the various players and instruments. That's really a good thing , I think. It's a nice, balanced spead.
The guits at 75 are really a nice change.
On another front, i know this is a wirk in-progress...so I'd like to make a suggestion:
The vamp between vocal parts has everything very busy. Nice. But there is one element that could really knit some parts of it together, make for a lot of additional interest, and, maybe, even provide the big hook:
A real tacky [B52's] synth melody or two or three note device, using the same lydian b7 mode that is the 'out' signature of the piece. And that mode has endless possibilities for crafting interesting sounds, through, and on top of , the root chord...a superimposition of a progression using the diatonic chords..or the outlining of the same using notes of C lyd b7. Outer-space pomp. And not a 'busy' thing: longer, sustained notes and chords to counter the chop of the vamp. And heavy accent on the tritone between F# and Bb. [provided it is in key of C...that's it, right?]
jeffmaher
New member
No!!!! A-OK!!
jeffmaher
New member
Why are the posts posting out of time-order. Are we in a wormhole?
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stupidfatnugly
New member
regardless of what anyone says, those are some new ideas and ways for me to think about it, which is really helpful. Thanks Jeff
I spread the guitars out to 75% L/R and lowered the bass by 2db and set it all to a medium room verb. snare is 10% R
let me know if there's more to do. I am still training my ears but I'm a little hard of hearing too. apparently, bass sounds I don't pick up so much
http://myspace.com/stupidfatandugly
Do I still have a black hole in the middle?
I spread the guitars out to 75% L/R and lowered the bass by 2db and set it all to a medium room verb. snare is 10% R
let me know if there's more to do. I am still training my ears but I'm a little hard of hearing too. apparently, bass sounds I don't pick up so much
http://myspace.com/stupidfatandugly
Do I still have a black hole in the middle?
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stupidfatnugly
New member
it's been awhile since I studied modes. the "out" chorus part is a B with a flat 5th. I won't do a synth on this one but maybe a clav. I'm curious to know more about what you're suggesting b/c I'm not sure what that is. just saying a pad with some notes or a chord in lydian b7?
jeffmaher
New member
You're doin' fine...play what you hear!
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stupidfatnugly
New member
Jeff,
since you know you're modes: my chorus is a Lydian b7. I don't know the second or third notes of the scale b/c I just made the bass line up, you know?
I'm thinking it's sounds minor and should be a flat 3rd.
here's what I have: 1,2,3, #4 ,5 ,6 ,b7
B, , , F ,F#,G#,A
my verse is just D Lydian, but I have a 4th that lands on a down beat; it sounds OK but I should probably play a C maj chord there. I also have a flat- 6th, but I roll through it.
just curious to know what you think about this, and if you have any answers or suggestions. I want to do that synth idea you had except with an organ, but I'm not sure of what chords I can put over that Lydian b7 bass line.
since you know you're modes: my chorus is a Lydian b7. I don't know the second or third notes of the scale b/c I just made the bass line up, you know?
I'm thinking it's sounds minor and should be a flat 3rd.
here's what I have: 1,2,3, #4 ,5 ,6 ,b7
B, , , F ,F#,G#,A
my verse is just D Lydian, but I have a 4th that lands on a down beat; it sounds OK but I should probably play a C maj chord there. I also have a flat- 6th, but I roll through it.
just curious to know what you think about this, and if you have any answers or suggestions. I want to do that synth idea you had except with an organ, but I'm not sure of what chords I can put over that Lydian b7 bass line.
jeffmaher
New member
http://www.yousendit.com/download/MnFqeEVWaTFOMUJMWEE9PQ
This is a similar vamp from memory. It has the root chord, and superimposes the harmony of B lydian b7. Diatonic 7th chords, the scale and a scale played in fifths, to orient you ear to the sound. The idea is to get it in your head, and let the composer inside come up with a melodic/chordal invention along those lines. A B whole-tone works well, too...and maintains the spacepomp thing. And you can use a flat third [B-7b5] too....that's the beauty of the vamp: is leaves endless possibilities for harmonic invention...a lot more than harmony based upon a major scale. Of particular interest is the possibility of a melody crafted on the 'altered scale' starting at F#. [same notes....different root to flit around] It'd fit. And the ear would be split in twain...aural vertigo. And vertigo is rampant in the piece...which is why I like it. Frank Zappa would be proud of you.
The diatonic 7ths are B7, C#7, D#-7b5, E#-7b5, F#-maj7,G#-7, and A+maj7
Just something strung-out and lazy and weird to lay on top of the franticality of the groove...and hook the ear. That's what I hear that would add an element ...melody....that my listener's curiosity craves...in between the verses. One more point of focus. A device to snare the ear.
The mechanics are simply a means to give you a pallette of colors...like the sample file. The composer in you is inspired by the colors, and paints a picture.
This is a similar vamp from memory. It has the root chord, and superimposes the harmony of B lydian b7. Diatonic 7th chords, the scale and a scale played in fifths, to orient you ear to the sound. The idea is to get it in your head, and let the composer inside come up with a melodic/chordal invention along those lines. A B whole-tone works well, too...and maintains the spacepomp thing. And you can use a flat third [B-7b5] too....that's the beauty of the vamp: is leaves endless possibilities for harmonic invention...a lot more than harmony based upon a major scale. Of particular interest is the possibility of a melody crafted on the 'altered scale' starting at F#. [same notes....different root to flit around] It'd fit. And the ear would be split in twain...aural vertigo. And vertigo is rampant in the piece...which is why I like it. Frank Zappa would be proud of you.
The diatonic 7ths are B7, C#7, D#-7b5, E#-7b5, F#-maj7,G#-7, and A+maj7
Just something strung-out and lazy and weird to lay on top of the franticality of the groove...and hook the ear. That's what I hear that would add an element ...melody....that my listener's curiosity craves...in between the verses. One more point of focus. A device to snare the ear.
The mechanics are simply a means to give you a pallette of colors...like the sample file. The composer in you is inspired by the colors, and paints a picture.
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Robertt8
Well-known member
interesting tune...
Here's what i'm hearing about the mix...
maybe it's just me, but it seems like the bass and guitars seem a little busy, like they're fighting with each other. it also might just be my headphones, but having just one guitar panned to the one side with nothing to really balance it on the other side seems to make the mix a little lopsided to me. the only thing really hitting the other speaker is the occasional symbol splash. I'd love to maybe hear the guitar line possibly panned further to that side (to get it away from the busy bass), and find either another guitar, shaker or something to of set that guitar line panned hard in the other speaker. You could try a slap-back delay hitting the other speaker. interesting sound and writing though.
just a few suggestions. take em or leave em'
Here's what i'm hearing about the mix...
maybe it's just me, but it seems like the bass and guitars seem a little busy, like they're fighting with each other. it also might just be my headphones, but having just one guitar panned to the one side with nothing to really balance it on the other side seems to make the mix a little lopsided to me. the only thing really hitting the other speaker is the occasional symbol splash. I'd love to maybe hear the guitar line possibly panned further to that side (to get it away from the busy bass), and find either another guitar, shaker or something to of set that guitar line panned hard in the other speaker. You could try a slap-back delay hitting the other speaker. interesting sound and writing though.
just a few suggestions. take em or leave em'
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stupidfatnugly
New member
thanks robert,
I think I fixed that.
I really like your bands stuff
I think I fixed that.
I really like your bands stuff
joeym
New member
Pretty interesting stuff. Although I found certain parts too monotonous with just the bass doing most of the work and the guitar chugging away. Voice is pretty good. Cymbals sound a bit too splashy, but the the recording's quite good. The synthetic sound of the drums fits pretty well.
Joey
Joey
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stupidfatnugly
New member
yeah, I wanted to just get a good solid 3 minute foundation started first. I will go back and add another chord to the verse; Jeff gave me an idea for the chorus(thanks Jeff I know what I'm gon do now); and I'm going to go actually listen to this for the first time on monitors, today.
that's all I can hope for. don't tell anyone about all the doubling, OK.
splashy and chaotic is what I am going for but I'll look into it. At the end of all this I'll try to make the drums sound a little more real. but the avg. listener can't tell the difference so I don't worry about it too much.Cymbals sound a bit too splashy, but the the recording's quite good. The synthetic sound of the drums fits pretty well.
Joey
thanks bro I added you on myspace. out on what, Malta?
made some changes to song after listening on monitors: http://myspace.com/stupidfatandugly
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