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goon88
New member
You all seem such thoughtful and generous people, I have been emboldened to post. Please listen and criticize:
Humbly,
Goon
Humbly,
Goon
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Shazukura
New member
I dig it!
Pray tell.. what instruments, mics, gear were used?
very clean! When is the CD being released?
If I were to change anything, I'd try to get a little of the mud out of the lower-end and step up the "punch" down there. I might also fade back the click a bit, and/or counter-pan it with the other lead instruments.
-Shaz
Pray tell.. what instruments, mics, gear were used?
very clean! When is the CD being released?
If I were to change anything, I'd try to get a little of the mud out of the lower-end and step up the "punch" down there. I might also fade back the click a bit, and/or counter-pan it with the other lead instruments.
-Shaz
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gnarled
New member
Well, I rather like the sound of the cello(s) and guitar. The drums and bass on the other hand, well, there sort of lackluster. The bass tone sounds like it belongs in a video game - no offense. I'd look for some better drum samples too. I do like the other little percussive additions though - just the kick and snare sound weak to me. Overall I like the composition - the eastern vibe toward the end (1:59) is really cool. I think cello is going to be the next instrument I teach myself to play - now if I could just get one with frets it'd make it a lot easier. 
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goon88
New member
Shaz:
You are too kind.
Gear:
iMac 450Mhz/SoundManager/ProTools Free/Alesis M1 Active monitors
Steinberger guitar ("Gertrude")
- '63 Princeton/SM58/PreSonus Blue Tube
- and direct through some cheap Boss half-rack compressor
G&L L2000 fretless bass - direct through the BT & the Boss comp.
A (nice for) plywood 'cello, also mic'ed with the 58.
The 3rd 'cello part I octaved up with the PTFree plugin to make it sound more like a fiddle. Some nasty artifacts from that, but it gives it an edge I kind of like.
Percussion
- I just recorded a few seconds of my 6 yr old playing the tambourine he made out of a paper plate, and hitting two sticks together; then I chopped it up in PTFree - oh and I was whistling during the tracking, and so that ended up in there kind of by mistake.
- then I scammed some free kick and snare samples off the web to try to give it some meat.... oh well.
The bottom (I think mainly the bass) is muddy. I don't understand why, but there might be too much below 100hz. It sounds better on my M1 Actives. Any suggestions for EQ, or other tactics?
Counter-panning, hmmmm. What does that mean?
Aaah, now I read Gnarled's post. Thank you sir or madam for your honesty.
'Cello is not as hard as you might think. Multi-tracking helps with intonation, although I didn't do enough of it on this one.
I think I have seen fretted electric cellos, believe it or not. The bow is a great thing, just go and get one.
Do not self-teach the cello. I am self taught on all my other instruments, but the proper bow technique is not intuitive - get professional help.
You are too kind.
Gear:
iMac 450Mhz/SoundManager/ProTools Free/Alesis M1 Active monitors
Steinberger guitar ("Gertrude")
- '63 Princeton/SM58/PreSonus Blue Tube
- and direct through some cheap Boss half-rack compressor
G&L L2000 fretless bass - direct through the BT & the Boss comp.
A (nice for) plywood 'cello, also mic'ed with the 58.
The 3rd 'cello part I octaved up with the PTFree plugin to make it sound more like a fiddle. Some nasty artifacts from that, but it gives it an edge I kind of like.
Percussion
- I just recorded a few seconds of my 6 yr old playing the tambourine he made out of a paper plate, and hitting two sticks together; then I chopped it up in PTFree - oh and I was whistling during the tracking, and so that ended up in there kind of by mistake.
- then I scammed some free kick and snare samples off the web to try to give it some meat.... oh well.
The bottom (I think mainly the bass) is muddy. I don't understand why, but there might be too much below 100hz. It sounds better on my M1 Actives. Any suggestions for EQ, or other tactics?
Counter-panning, hmmmm. What does that mean?
Aaah, now I read Gnarled's post. Thank you sir or madam for your honesty.
'Cello is not as hard as you might think. Multi-tracking helps with intonation, although I didn't do enough of it on this one.
I think I have seen fretted electric cellos, believe it or not. The bow is a great thing, just go and get one.
Do not self-teach the cello. I am self taught on all my other instruments, but the proper bow technique is not intuitive - get professional help.
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Eric J
New member
Love The Cellos!
They have a nice 'woody' sound, and you can hear the the 'gritty' sound of the bow.
The guitar parts sometimes sound like little bits sampled and looped - sort of like the early 80's Brian Eno stuff - especially on My Life In The Bush Of Ghosts(?) with David Byrne.
Overall the melody and harmonies are a bit more complex for what I would call 'pop'.
Unless you consider the Penguin Cafe Orchestra or the Kronos Quartet pop.
If that's the whistling causing the whiny/steamy sound in the perscussion loops, then I would call that I an happy accident.
The bass does sound a little weak in tone, but that might well be an effect that you were going for. Doesn't detract from the song in my book.
No engineering/recording problems that I can hear - sounds good to these ears.
They have a nice 'woody' sound, and you can hear the the 'gritty' sound of the bow.
The guitar parts sometimes sound like little bits sampled and looped - sort of like the early 80's Brian Eno stuff - especially on My Life In The Bush Of Ghosts(?) with David Byrne.
Overall the melody and harmonies are a bit more complex for what I would call 'pop'.
Unless you consider the Penguin Cafe Orchestra or the Kronos Quartet pop.
If that's the whistling causing the whiny/steamy sound in the perscussion loops, then I would call that I an happy accident.
The bass does sound a little weak in tone, but that might well be an effect that you were going for. Doesn't detract from the song in my book.
No engineering/recording problems that I can hear - sounds good to these ears.
badgas
New member
Sounded real good Goon.
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goon88
New member
Eric:
Thanks a lot for the kind comments.
I was surprised at how well the 58 worked on the cello. It is not normally considered to be a good cello mic - too nasal. In fact, I went out and bought an Oktava MC012, which is supposed to be very good for cello, but the tracks I recorded with it kind of sunk into the mix. The 58 really puts it in your face. Maybe the small diaphragm condensers are good for classical recordings where there is no heavy bottom from kick drums and bass guitar (that's what makes this 'pop' to me), and you want a smooth, creamy, kind of bottomy cello tone.
I think the problems with the bass tone may come from trying to keep it out of the way of the cello. A fretted bass might have been better - less mid-rangey.
It's cool that you mentioned Eno-Byrne. I certainly listened to those records a lot back in the day, and I guess I just play guitar like that. The guitar part was comped together, but only because I couldn't get it right on any one single take.
Thanks again, and thanks to Badgas (try Mylanta (sorry)) and I'll have to check out all of your tunes !
goon
Thanks a lot for the kind comments.
I was surprised at how well the 58 worked on the cello. It is not normally considered to be a good cello mic - too nasal. In fact, I went out and bought an Oktava MC012, which is supposed to be very good for cello, but the tracks I recorded with it kind of sunk into the mix. The 58 really puts it in your face. Maybe the small diaphragm condensers are good for classical recordings where there is no heavy bottom from kick drums and bass guitar (that's what makes this 'pop' to me), and you want a smooth, creamy, kind of bottomy cello tone.
I think the problems with the bass tone may come from trying to keep it out of the way of the cello. A fretted bass might have been better - less mid-rangey.
It's cool that you mentioned Eno-Byrne. I certainly listened to those records a lot back in the day, and I guess I just play guitar like that. The guitar part was comped together, but only because I couldn't get it right on any one single take.
Thanks again, and thanks to Badgas (try Mylanta (sorry)) and I'll have to check out all of your tunes !
goon
badgas
New member
I have no tunes yet, Goon.
I was just getting going, then I moved. Now I'm in the middle of setting everything back up.
Time. So much of it, yet so little.
Thanks for the tip.
I was just getting going, then I moved. Now I'm in the middle of setting everything back up.
Time. So much of it, yet so little.
Thanks for the tip.
DavidK
New member
Nice job. I could use more Cello, with a tad more definition. Nice to have another string player around these parts
macle
New member
I really enjoyed this. Really a cool piece. Big thumb's up!
Macle
Macle
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goon88
New member
Wow, thanks a lot, David & Macle. It's very motivating to get feedback!
David, by "definition" did you mean the playing or the mix? I know my bow-chops could be better....
Macle, I've heard your stuff. I'm not worthy.
goon
David, by "definition" did you mean the playing or the mix? I know my bow-chops could be better....
Macle, I've heard your stuff. I'm not worthy.
goon
DavidK
New member
goon, I was talking about the recording. Criticize a fellow string player? No way, bro! (Since you are new, I am the resident classical violin geek in the group.)
Definition= I don't like that mic on strings. I think some of the nuances weren't captured, and being a string player, I would push the cello volume up, but that is probably biased.
If you have a moment, check out some of my stuff. http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/classical/ I am not sure if this site is working fully yet. The owner, Waldo, is one of our friends in the forum, and he just totally revamped the site, so it might take some time to get it working well, havent checked it out yet.
Really enjoyed your tune, looking forward to more, Dave.
Definition= I don't like that mic on strings. I think some of the nuances weren't captured, and being a string player, I would push the cello volume up, but that is probably biased.
If you have a moment, check out some of my stuff. http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/classical/ I am not sure if this site is working fully yet. The owner, Waldo, is one of our friends in the forum, and he just totally revamped the site, so it might take some time to get it working well, havent checked it out yet.
Really enjoyed your tune, looking forward to more, Dave.
dobro
Well-known member
Penguin Cafe Orchestra gone funky and better.
You gotta get some better sound on the cello - it deserves it. A better mic, and David's right - boost the cello - maybe mic it closer too? I don't know the first thing about miking cellos. A long time ago here I asked about it, and one suggestion I remember was playing four feet out from a wall with a PZM mic on the wall. It sounds to me on this one like the room sound on the cello isn't as attractive a sound as the sound you got on the guitar and bass, for example.
More than just a toe-tapper, it goes places and there are chord changes and playing really worth listening to.
Really engaging. That the only one you've got?
You gotta get some better sound on the cello - it deserves it. A better mic, and David's right - boost the cello - maybe mic it closer too? I don't know the first thing about miking cellos. A long time ago here I asked about it, and one suggestion I remember was playing four feet out from a wall with a PZM mic on the wall. It sounds to me on this one like the room sound on the cello isn't as attractive a sound as the sound you got on the guitar and bass, for example.
More than just a toe-tapper, it goes places and there are chord changes and playing really worth listening to.
Really engaging. That the only one you've got?
DavidK
New member
Good ears, Dobro,
It might help if the mic was closer. What the heck is a plywood cello? Never came across one.
Cool tune though,nice job
To me, the cello sounds on a totally different level. Those Shure 58 mics dont cut it on strings: I personally like the AKG 414, but they obviously cost big bucks.
It might help if the mic was closer. What the heck is a plywood cello? Never came across one.
Cool tune though,nice job
macle
New member
goon88 said:
Ha ha! Thanks for that, but seriously, I really liked it. Usually, I don't like drum machine type drums, but I thought it worked pretty well in your tune. And I love the cello. I was 2 seconds away from getting one a couple months ago. There were these cheap ones from China for about $200 or something. I'll probably get one eventually.
Anyway, keep it up. Real musical. I think it would great for film soundtracks, too.
Macle
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goon88
New member
Thanks again for the encouragement, guys.
I will try micing closer. The first & 3rd (eastern/octaved) cello parts were mic'ed with the 58 pointing just above the bridge, on the centerline about 15" away. The second was with an MC012 (cardioid) in about the same place - pointing more at the bridge maybe. I did not get the mics very much closer than that because the proximity effect made it way too bottomy. Next time I'll try shoving the 012 in tight, and just EQ-out the prox effect. I have some PZMs, so I'll give those a try too.
Also, I splurged on some top quality strings (Larsens A&D and Spirocore G&C - about $150 worth) since I recorded this, and that made a big difference. The old strings were 15yr-old Thomastik Dominant synthetic fiber core.
The polite name for plywood is 'laminated.' Serious cellos are carved from solid blocks of wood. As I am sure David knows, serious string instruments cost really serious money. One of these days I would love to buy a really nice cello....sigh.
Macle, plan on spending minimum $800-$1000 for a playable used laminated or (very used) low-end carved cello. I am afraid a $200 instrument would just be a waste of money, and trust me I'm not being snobby. I am one cheap-ass mo-fo.
Dobro, I will just have to make more tunes, but I have to be patient. This one was my first recording in about 10 yrs, and it took me 6 months. There was more time for music back when I didn't have a real job, an old house and 3 kids.
I will try micing closer. The first & 3rd (eastern/octaved) cello parts were mic'ed with the 58 pointing just above the bridge, on the centerline about 15" away. The second was with an MC012 (cardioid) in about the same place - pointing more at the bridge maybe. I did not get the mics very much closer than that because the proximity effect made it way too bottomy. Next time I'll try shoving the 012 in tight, and just EQ-out the prox effect. I have some PZMs, so I'll give those a try too.
Also, I splurged on some top quality strings (Larsens A&D and Spirocore G&C - about $150 worth) since I recorded this, and that made a big difference. The old strings were 15yr-old Thomastik Dominant synthetic fiber core.
The polite name for plywood is 'laminated.' Serious cellos are carved from solid blocks of wood. As I am sure David knows, serious string instruments cost really serious money. One of these days I would love to buy a really nice cello....sigh.
Macle, plan on spending minimum $800-$1000 for a playable used laminated or (very used) low-end carved cello. I am afraid a $200 instrument would just be a waste of money, and trust me I'm not being snobby. I am one cheap-ass mo-fo.
Dobro, I will just have to make more tunes, but I have to be patient. This one was my first recording in about 10 yrs, and it took me 6 months. There was more time for music back when I didn't have a real job, an old house and 3 kids.
dobro
Well-known member
Gee, the MC012's a pretty good mic, although again, I don't how it works on a cello.
What kind of rooms do you have access to for recording in? You tracking to a DAW or a computer? If to a DAW, maybe you can become slightly itinerant until you find a space that sounds really nice with your instrument. The way you miked it sounds okay to me. Here's what Bruce Bartlett says in 'Practical Recording Techniques':
"Place the strings in a large, live room and mike them at a distance to pick up a natural acoustic sound." (That's his advice for a whole string section.)
"If the room is too noisy or dead, or the balance is too poor, you'll need to mike close and add digital reverb... Mike the cello about 2 feet from the bridge."
So he suggests miking cello about the same way you did, plus he uses a room mic and a good room.
The reason I'm so interested in what you do with this is because I'm in love with the sound of cello. Cello, viola, violin, oboe and flute - that would be a lovely backup band.
What kind of rooms do you have access to for recording in? You tracking to a DAW or a computer? If to a DAW, maybe you can become slightly itinerant until you find a space that sounds really nice with your instrument. The way you miked it sounds okay to me. Here's what Bruce Bartlett says in 'Practical Recording Techniques':
"Place the strings in a large, live room and mike them at a distance to pick up a natural acoustic sound." (That's his advice for a whole string section.)
"If the room is too noisy or dead, or the balance is too poor, you'll need to mike close and add digital reverb... Mike the cello about 2 feet from the bridge."
So he suggests miking cello about the same way you did, plus he uses a room mic and a good room.
The reason I'm so interested in what you do with this is because I'm in love with the sound of cello. Cello, viola, violin, oboe and flute - that would be a lovely backup band.
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goon88
New member
Hey, Dobro:
I tracked it into an iMac, in a pretty small, dead sounding room, and bussed the cello tracks to the same D-verb plugin with everything else -- I like it when all the fake instruments are in the same fake room with the real instruments.
The iMac is fairly portable, so I might try another room in my house next time.
I bought the MC012 from GC, and I have read that the quality may therefore be suspect, but the playback sounds at least as good as live. (I track myself - tap the spacebar with the tip of the bow & go)
I blame the cello and the strings more than anything. Not to make excuses, but it's just plywood, and worth ~$500. There's a reason why good string instruments cost mega bucks.
goon
I tracked it into an iMac, in a pretty small, dead sounding room, and bussed the cello tracks to the same D-verb plugin with everything else -- I like it when all the fake instruments are in the same fake room with the real instruments.
The iMac is fairly portable, so I might try another room in my house next time.
I bought the MC012 from GC, and I have read that the quality may therefore be suspect, but the playback sounds at least as good as live. (I track myself - tap the spacebar with the tip of the bow & go)
I blame the cello and the strings more than anything. Not to make excuses, but it's just plywood, and worth ~$500. There's a reason why good string instruments cost mega bucks.
goon
dobro
Well-known member
Yeah, you're right about the high cost of quality strings, but the sound I heard in your mix wasn't the instrument, it was the *instrument through a particular mic in a particular room".
I've got a plywood guitar. It's a good plywood guitar. The sound I get on it has less to do with the guitar than with:
1) mic placement
2) the room
3) the mic(s) I put on the instrument
"I tracked it into an iMac, in a pretty small, dead sounding room"
Okay, now try tracking it in a larger, live-sounding room. Cello sings and fills space. Make it sound like that.
I've got a plywood guitar. It's a good plywood guitar. The sound I get on it has less to do with the guitar than with:
1) mic placement
2) the room
3) the mic(s) I put on the instrument
"I tracked it into an iMac, in a pretty small, dead sounding room"
Okay, now try tracking it in a larger, live-sounding room. Cello sings and fills space. Make it sound like that.
Village Idiot
The Love Butler
Hiya Goony!
I gave it a listen, and I must say that I dug it alot.
The realness of the Cello sounded great up against the chintzy Drum Machine, and I do mean that in a non-sarcastic way.
Kinda like reality meets fantasy.
Very tasty guitar(?) work, kinda sounds like a Parker Fly.
Post some more soon, that was pretty cool.
VI
I gave it a listen, and I must say that I dug it alot.
The realness of the Cello sounded great up against the chintzy Drum Machine, and I do mean that in a non-sarcastic way.
Kinda like reality meets fantasy.
Very tasty guitar(?) work, kinda sounds like a Parker Fly.
Post some more soon, that was pretty cool.
VI