cdr compatibility

[pseudosun]

a while back i made a copy of a demo that wouldn't play in a car cd player, but played fine at home. Was it because i used a stand alone cd burner, and/or type of cdr? I'm sending my demo off for mastering, and will need duplication. When i get it back, i was thinking about duplicating myself, but know i'm thinking that they might not be compatible with all players. Are the computer burned cd's more compatible than the cd's made with a home cd recorder? I just want to be sure before i order music/audio blank cdr's and duplicate myself.

 

[Massive Master]

You need a RedBook compliant disc - Home "stand-alone" CD burners (and several programs also) generally do NOT create a compliant disc. It's "hit or miss" where they're going to play. Copies of non-compliant data are going to be non-compliant discs also.

 

[solo.guitar]

Also, most duplicated (mastered) CDs aren't burned, they're printed.

 

[Massive Master]

True, but you need a properly mastered and compliant disc (or a DDP, etc.) to create the glass master from for mass-replication *or* short-run duplication.

 

[BRIEFCASEMANX]

True, but you need a properly mastered and compliant disc (or a DDP, etc.) to create the glass master from for mass-replication *or* short-run duplication.

what about data discs? if you have a home cd burner and are going to send it to a mastering house or duplication plant would a data disc with the tracks work?

 

[Massive Master]

90% of what comes in here is 24-bit PCM files on a data disc. That's pretty "standard" (if there is such a thing).

After any additional processing and assembly, the output is a 16-bit, 44.1kHz, RedBook compliant and error-checked (actually part of RB specs) disc.

Basically, unless there's a specific reason for mixing to a stand-alone 16-bit burner, you're going to be in much better shape sending simple bounced PCM (.wav, .aiff, etc.) files in a higher resolution.

 

[masteringhouse]

a while back i made a copy of a demo that wouldn't play in a car cd player, but played fine at home. Was it because i used a stand alone cd burner, and/or type of cdr? I'm sending my demo off for mastering, and will need duplication. When i get it back, i was thinking about duplicating myself, but know i'm thinking that they might not be compatible with all players. Are the computer burned cd's more compatible than the cd's made with a home cd recorder? I just want to be sure before i order music/audio blank cdr's and duplicate myself.

Sounds like it may be due to CD errors. Some CD players are more "forgiving" than others. Do you get any indication in the car stereo that shows any sort of error code?

You can have a redbook compliant disc that still exhibits this behavior. Essentially it happens when the error correction built into the CD player "gives up" due to the number and type of errors it receives.

 

[solo.guitar]

Basically, unless there's a specific reason for mixing to a stand-alone 16-bit burner, you're going to be in much better shape sending simple bounced PCM (.wav, .aiff, etc.) files in a higher resolution.

Is it a lot better to send in 24-bit files as opposed to 16-bit? Even if the 16-bit WAVs peak at about -15 to -18 db? Is that usually enough headroom?

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Is it a lot better to send in 24-bit files as opposed to 16-bit? Even if the 16-bit WAVs peak at about -15 to -18 db? Is that usually enough headroom?

The main advantages to sending 24-bit to the ME is that it allows them to work on a true 24-bit source at 24-bit themself rather than starting with an already shortened 16-bit source, the fact that good MEs are equipped with top-shelf dithering algorithms often better than what many of us have, along with the monitoring environment to actually hear the difference as to which one to use.

G.

 

[masteringhouse]

Is it a lot better to send in 24-bit files as opposed to 16-bit? Even if the 16-bit WAVs peak at about -15 to -18 db? Is that usually enough headroom?

One of the first things that an ME is going to do is to convert the files to 24 bit if they load the source to a computer before processing. So yes, much better to send as 24 bit before dithering to 16 or worse truncating to 16.

Remember 1 bit is approx 6 db, so recording peaks at -18 on 16 bit is essentially recording as 13 bit. doing this at 24 bits is like recording at 21 bit, much better than 16 even at those levels.

 

[solo.guitar]

Oh ok. I always thought I was fine recording in 44.1/16-bit...

I still don't see how bit depth relates to db though...

 

[flatfinger]

Oh ok. I always thought I was fine recording in 44.1/16-bit...

I still don't see how bit depth relates to db though...

The wordlength is the amplitude. when the a/d process is encoded, the amplitude is recorded in bits; 0 bits is no volume 16 or 24 is loudest volume; So There's nothing wrong with your 16 bit files , and, In fact that's what the final CD that gets played back is, and this format has sounded pretty damm good for many years. There are however 8 bits more resolution in 24 bit files. That means there are more descrete "steps" better possible resolution.

The ME wants longer wordlength because he's going to apply processing, and digital processing(math calculations) makes the wordlength get longer and longer(division,multipication) He wants to push the noise and errors way down to the bottom end(least significant bit) so the will be unheard and give you the best results. Better to give him the most resolution you can to start with. When he's done with whatever processing he does , he'll take it back down to 16 bit.

This is a good article about the subject: "More bits please"

http://www.digido.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=13

Cheers

 

[Massive Master]

16-bit = 65,000 possible values (resolution)

24-bit = 16.7 million possible values - 256 times that of 16-bit.

 

[flatfinger]

16-bit = 65,000 possible values (resolution)

24-bit = 16.7 million possible values - 256 times that of 16-bit.

Hey Massive; Not allot of recordings that actually avail themselves of all that availible dynamic range these days, eh??

Thanks for the info, now I know that to set a limiter to stun, set the dial to 16.7 million!!!!

 

[Massive Master]

Hey Massive; Not allot of recordings that actually avail themselves of all that availible dynamic range these days, eh??

Sad and true. But that kind of precision during the abuse is still nice...

 

[bblackwood]

16-bit = 65,000 possible values (resolution)

24-bit = 16.7 million possible values - 256 times that of 16-bit.

The word 'resolution' here can be decieving - those extra values gained with the 24 bit word are below the 16th bit (-96dBFS).

 

[bblackwood]

a while back i made a copy of a demo that wouldn't play in a car cd player, but played fine at home. Was it because i used a stand alone cd burner, and/or type of cdr? I'm sending my demo off for mastering, and will need duplication. When i get it back, i was thinking about duplicating myself, but know i'm thinking that they might not be compatible with all players. Are the computer burned cd's more compatible than the cd's made with a home cd recorder? I just want to be sure before i order music/audio blank cdr's and duplicate myself.

You might look for blanks that have higher reflectivity - car players are notorious for not playing back discs with low reflection rates...

 

[gtrman_66]

a while back i made a copy of a demo that wouldn't play in a car cd player, but played fine at home. Was it because i used a stand alone cd burner, and/or type of cdr? I'm sending my demo off for mastering, and will need duplication. When i get it back, i was thinking about duplicating myself, but know i'm thinking that they might not be compatible with all players. Are the computer burned cd's more compatible than the cd's made with a home cd recorder? I just want to be sure before i order music/audio blank cdr's and duplicate myself.

Two things to check first:

1.Make sure you are using a CDR, not a CDRW. RW discs won't play audio on most players.

2. Be sure to "finalize" your disc. I haven't used my old stand alone in a long time, but as I remember, there was a "finalize" function that had to be performed on the disc before it would play in other players.

good luck

 

[masteringhouse]

The word 'resolution' here can be decieving - those extra values gained with the 24 bit word are below the 16th bit (-96dBFS).

Agreed, some folks make an analogy between video and audio resolution. Not quite the same thing. With video a higher screen resolution increases the detail of the picture, with audio it increases dynamic range and signal to noise ratio. It also allows one to keep the remanants of digital audio processing at a lower level. "Detail" in audio is more related to sample rate, though one could argue 8 bit vs 16 bit.

 

[Reggie]

Not that I am an expert with fancy papers and stuff, but I don't think I agree with some of the stuff here. I would tend to equate bit-depth with resolution (or detail), and samplerate with bandwidth. Also, as has been mentioned, more bits doesn't really break down the audio into smaller, more defined steps; it just allows the converter to assign more values to keep defining quieter and quieter stuff. So like in 16-bit, the quietest a converter can define is -96db (I think, right?). Anything below that is considered silence; so your first step in volume (least significant bit) is from silence up to -96db or somewherebouts. A 24-bit converter's first step in volume is from silence up to -144db. Then you have all the stairstep of values up to 0dbfs. The size of each "stairstep" is the same for 16bit and 24bit, those extra bits just pick up below where 16-bit can no longer represent amplitude.

0 bits is no volume 16 or 24 is loudest volume

And this ^ is a little clumsy in that 0000000000000000(16-bit) or 000000000000000000000000(24-bit) is no volume, and 1111111111111111(16-bit) or 111111111111111111111111(24-bit) is loudest volume / 0dbfs.

what about data discs? if you have a home cd burner and are going to send it to a mastering house or duplication plant would a data disc with the tracks work?

Depending on which you are dealing with, you might end up with a bunch of CD-ROMs back from the duplicator that you will have to play in your computer, if you don't send the duplicator a properly formatted CD-DA disc exactly as you want it.