CD: A Lie Repeated Often Enough Becomes Truth

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cjacek

Analogue Enthusiast
I found this perusing the net. It's most fascinating, especially that it echos many of our members' thoughts on this very subject. The article is from the early 80's. :eek:

CD: A Lie Repeated Often Enough Becomes Truth

Doug Sax & Larry Archibald, December, 1983

Larry Archibald on CD:
This article on Compact Discs and CD players is by Doug Sax, president of Sheffield Records and a longtime opponent of digital recording. J. Gordon Holt offers a response elsewhere in this issue, in which he advises readers to buy a Compact Disc player as soon as they can afford it. Gordon in general hails the Compact Disc as the greatest thing to hit audio since the stereophonic LP.

Sax's article was initially written for Billboard magazine. Billboard also ran a response from Peter Burkowitz of Polygram entitled "Sax on CD: A Bigoted Attack." We don't have room or permission to run the Burkowitz reply but, if anything, it was even more extreme than Sax's original article, though more in line with Stereophile's editorial position. Statements like the following have simply never been borne out in the entire history of the recording industry: "there are no means of adding anything to, or subtracting from, the master tape" (in CD mastering); and "16-bit uniform quantization digital recording and reproduction, including the CD, does not, and cannot, add or subtract audible sensations of any kind. Period." (emphasis added)

Sax has carried his anti-CD campaign further, in a letter to 140 high-end audio manufacturers. In fact, our original intent was to print that letter, but we are bowing to Sheffield's desire to have reprinted the Billboard article. The letter appealed for an end to silence on the CD (from high-end manufacturers), and contained its own forceful language: "Clearly the CD does not match the abilities of a digital master tape"; "it (the CD) is a finite, low-resolution, synthesize model of its input. The only thing infinite about the CD is the BS."; "I simply cannot enjoy music that has been digitally processed."

Doug Sax has proved himself to be one of the best producers of audiophile discs in the world, especially when it comes to sonics. Stereophile's reviews of Sheffield discs have become practically boring they are so unanimously raves. All the more surprising, then, that one of Sheffield's greatest fans, J. Gordon Holt, should have such profound disagreement with him on the subject of digital recording in general and CD in particular.

It should be noted that Sax is making two distinct points: 1) he "respects the ability of digital recording systems to store energy," but finds digital recordings musically unacceptable; and 2) the Compact Disc is a woefully inadequate version of the digital master tape—you might as well compare the sound of a cheap Sansui to a Conrad-Johnson Premier One.

For the record, there is some disagreement in the recording industry about Sax's statements. Jack Renner of Telarc frankly feels that the CDs Telarc is now producing are identical to their digital master tapes. The particular sound you get from the CD depends on the player you use. It's Renner's opinion that the Philips Magnavox players provide a significantly more accurate version; he feels the Sony has a glassy high end.

Sax's statements about the British press don't tell quite the whole story. Readers are recommended to the excellent British high fidelity magazine, Hi-Fi News & Record Review (HFN/RR), in whose pages are found both high condemnation and vigorous defense of the Compact Disc. [HFN/RR was edited at this time by John Atkinson.—Ed.]

As we have noted in these pages before, there seems to be no middle ground about digital, particularly CDs. Having heard truly excellent sound from CDs, I simply cannot condemn the process. There seems to be even more evidence for accepting digital recording as an acceptable medium: our experience with the Sony PCM Fl bears this out, as do the records from Sonic Arts.

I think it is unwise, however, to put all the blame for the many terrible-sounding CDs on bad miking, bad mixing, etc. These were all present with analog records, and I simply don't believe that the analog record-making process has that kind an effect on poor engineering practices. In other words, I think there is still much to learn about how to produce truly excellent digital recordings, and perhaps faults in the processes by which the digital master tape is turned into a Compact Disc—or in the digital master tapes themselves.

At this point, the debate over CD and digital is still a very spirited one and we are all learning more because of it. Not the least important result has been a resurgence of analog discplaying equipment, as if to meet The Digital Challenge (as Monster Cable puts it). Let's keep our minds open and try to learn from both the critics and proponents of CD.—Larry Archibald

Doug Sax on CD:
We've never had anything for the home like the Compact Disc before. Using digitally coded pits read by a laser, it achieves noise-free reproduction without wear. Although less than 5" in diameter, it can contain over one hour of uninterrupted music—and that music will have an impressive dynamic range with a full frequency response.

CD is the first new storage medium of any viability since the compact cassette, and its parentage is indeed the same, the ever impressive Philips. Unlike the cassette, the CD has no ability to record.

Its impressive list of features would seem to guarantee success. All the discs are compatible with all the players, regardless of manufacturer. The incompatibility mistakes of four-channel reproduction are not being made again.

Launching a new storage medium for the home is an enormous task. The investment in Europe and Japan has been prodigious. The CD claims to offer "perfect sound, forever," there by automatically satisfying the demands of both the high fidelity and audiophile markets. As production increases and the costs of both players and discs come down, the CD is slated to replace the LP altogether.

The only question left for me to decide is whether to retire immediately or try to hold an a few more years, inasmuch as one company that I head is an audiophile label and the other is concerned solely with disc mastering.

One can understand, then, that I have watched with more than casual interest the unprecedented promotion for the CD. The traditionally noncritical audio magazines in the United States have been positively drooling over the merits of the CD. This created a demand for the player months before they even went on sale.

Recently, CD players and discs have become available across the country and, for the first time, all have the opportunity to compare its performance to the rhetoric surrounding it. I was most interested in popular product with which I am familiar. I certainly didn't expect perfect sound; nor do I feel the CD needs anything more than very good sound to succeed since its other advantages are so obvious.

But what I have heard on many players, and on more discs than I would ever care to listen to again, is mediocre sound, sound that is often unappealing and fatiguing. Many engineers who have auditioned the CD have had the same reaction.

I have been on record, since I first heard a digital master tape, that there is an enormous price to be paid, in musical terms, for the noise-free performance of digital. Although digital storage is not my cup of tea, I nevertheless have a great respect for how well a professional digital recorder performs. I can hear obvious virtues that could easily please some of the people all of the time.

No such respect can be engendered by the CD, however. A handful of cheap chips and a few "inaudible" digital generations have eaten at its heart and soul. Its performance no more resembles a professional recorder than a production Chevrolet matches a NASCAR racer.

The CD is going to force the consumer to come to grips with the problems of digital technology, first because the CD is the worst presentation of that technology, and second because all the music heard from the CD will have these digital colorations even if the master tape was recorded in analog form.

In Los Angeles, the recording capital of the world, the storage medium of choice for over 90% of all commercial albums is analog.

For the last four years, manufacturers and magazines have answered negative responses to digital recording with sentiments that state, "It is the fault of the LP record. The LP cannot handle the information that is stored on a digital master. Wait until you hear it in a pure digital form."

The CD has only been out in limited quantities for two months, and already the high-fidelity magazines are receiving complaints about its sound, complaints that are generally aimed at the commercial product that is the backbone of our industry.

The answer in essence says, "Since the CD replicated the master tape, the faults lie in the engineering. Engineers are going to have to use better microphones and less EQ to satisfy a medium as revealing as the CD." That's a lot of BS! A lot of good sound is being lost and a lot of unmusical sound is being added between the master tape and the finished CD.

That's my opinion, and also the opinion of Bernie Grundman, A&M's renowned disc cutter. Eventually the buck will have to stop where it belongs, on the shortcomings of the CD system itself.

Who has approved these discs before they went on sale? Some of the commercial discs appear to have been altered from their original concept. It seems that someone with no taste or knowledge of the music has "improved" on the original. In many cases, a vital process has been eliminated—the participation of the producer and engineer. I find it amazing that, after a fortune has been spent to develop and market a new technology, producers or engineers are rarely involved to insure the musical quality of the finished product. The ultimate sales potential of the CD will be determined by word of mouth, and the word on the street is that it is a big disappointment sonically.

In evaluating classical recordings, the British audio press noted for performing critical listening tests, has recently published reviews that are scathingly unfavorable. Some reviewers cited an inability to listen to the CD for any length of time. Listening to a complete disc was usually beyond their perserverance. No characteristic could be more undesirable in a music storage medium.

If one believes that good promotion, many desirable features, and the absence of noise will justify the CD system, then its future should be fine. But I believe that we are offering music, not silence, and an audio player with a disc price of $17.98 has got to offer more. It has to offer the one thing that the CD is struggling with—excellent sound that is accessible to all.

The last thing our industry needs is a new format that offers half the sound for twice the price.—Doug Sax

Source: http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/194/
 
It's all good, but the new HDCD remasters and DVD audio isn't that bad (IMHO).
 
_DK said:
It's all good, but the new HDCD remasters and DVD audio isn't that bad (IMHO).

My 2 cents worth is that, definitely, you'll be getting a more complete sound picture but there still will be cut-offs inherent to such media. The range of currect digital is still limited. Add to this the potential horrific digital remastering, as is the case for most of my cd's and we have a problem. ;)
 
That article is a real gem!

So,... Beck wrote this article? (Heh). :eek:
And it doesn't record? That sucks. :eek: :eek: :eek: ;)
Do you think this digital CD will ever catch on? :eek: :eek: ;)
 
...but you know, the real point of the article and what struck me as interesting has nothing really to do with the content but the date it was published. It's amazing that there were people, with impressive industry credentials, who were opposed to the CD, which was a really hi-tech digital back then. The reasoning, content and even the words used, some 20+ years back, are very much like some of the threads on this forum. That's freaky! :eek:
 
I dont think what Doug Sax said was really that outrageous, at least not at the time. CD's had only been on the market for a few months, there were problems with pro digital recorders as well as problems with D/A chips in consumer players and the whole digital audio thing was very much in its infancy. Also Doug Sax, like Bernie Grundman, stood to lose greatly by the mass acceptance of digital audio, and the consequent end of disc mastering as they knew it, and Sax was candid enough to admit that.

I'm not sure Doug Sax would appreciate having his comments of 23 years ago applied to the situation in 2006. Wouldnt it be fairer to find out what Doug Sax, Bernie Grundman and similar think of CD audio today, rather than what they thought when the technology was still very much in its infancy...?

Regards, Tim G.
 
It's also freaky and weak that many references are made to the lack of quality in digital technology that are based solely on the CD Audio standard as if there's nothing higher then that in the digital realm. It's sort of akin to when people put down analog but only make references to cassette decks.

If true comparisons are to be made about either system, it should always be about the best, at the top end of the art, for either camp. Anything less is a waste of time and bandwidth on the server.

Cheers! :)
 
cjacek said:
It's amazing that there were people, with impressive industry credentials, who were opposed to the CD, which was a really hi-tech digital back then.
Industry is a pizza-pie. The larger your slice - the more impressive your "credentials". When the size of your slice is threatened - you oppose the threat or you are out. ;)

The last thing our industry needs is a new format that offers half the sound for twice the price.—Doug Sax
My reply: "Doug, your essay isn't about sound. Your essay is about your industry and your place in it (and, btw, so is the publication on the pages of which your essay is being printed.) So, you are fooling many people but not all of them. BTW, your industry sucks, Doug. And that's why the worse is yet to come..." :p
YaaaaHHHACK-HHhhhhhhhhhh!

/respects
 

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....ok, but putting all that aside, don't you see parallels between that article and many posts very much like it, here on this board, as recent as days and weeks back ? What changed ? The year ? Take the Doug Sax equation out of it (and also the "credentials" part ;) ) and you still have a very compelling picture. What is it that Doug said that is not true ? All the points still hold water in 2006. I have CD's and DVD audio as recently bought as a few weeks back. Most of my "digital" purchases were between 1990 and 2006. Nothing changed, at least to my ears. Take the best of the CD and DVD and the best of Vinyl and the latter wins hands down, always.

I don't think it's wasted bandwidth. There are tons of posts, on this forum, that could be labelled as such but it keeps the board alive with discussions. I personally don't want this to be like the tascamforums.com where everything is straight and narrow. Many helpful posts but nothing goes on there. It's dead. You ask a relevant question and get a to-the-point reply. Great but boring.

My intention is not to stir up trouble but to point to a potentially interesting read and the relevance and meaning attached to it. The major point really is that, taking from the article, at least to my reasoning, is that the title "CD: A Lie Repeated Often Enough Becomes Truth" is a very valid statement. It's not only about the CD but new technology in general where the industry people tend to only gain. They pump out audio magazines with articles and editorials hailing (or better yet, pimping) the new technology, along with other media, the news etc ..... and many people blindly follow .... It's no different than anything today for just about any product or service.

Some say that it is the consumers who decide what is being put on the shelf. I don't agree with that 100%. Initially I don't think it's them who decide but are rather coaxed into it. As the ball starts rolling then yes, they are the "deciders", in the most loose sense of the word. Point is that I sincerely believe the reason the CD came to fruition (and replaced the LP) and became what it is today, is mostly the doing of the industry and its powerful psychology behind the product, again, at least initially. A Lie Repeated Often Enough Becomes Truth. Indeed.
 
It's a good article in that it's a window into the time when we thought digital audio even in the form of the CD was the bee's knees; the cat's meow... THE BELL. The problems with CD were not generally addressed in consumer publications, but we now know how controversial it was among engineers.

Before we even saw a CD we were set on pressing one. That's marketing folks... it's how it began and it's still how it's sustained.

Of course there are better digital formats than CD, but they all share some things in common. The sound stage for one -- to this day digital stereo at any bit depth or resolution does not even approach the width and spatial complexity of high quality stereo cassette.

Oh it may beat it in other ways, but the sound stage hasn't improved since this article. It's not one of those things that will be noticed by most people if they haven't heard the analog master first, but is one of the limitations of digital that we know and can measure. Many of us just don't like it. :(
 
cjacek said:
....ok, but putting all that aside, don't you see parallels between that article and many posts very much like it, here on this board, as recent as days and weeks back ?
Not really, Daniel. Well, it depends how you look at it, of course. I also can't nor am going to put a side who is writing and why, because that makes a big difference in how what's being written has to be read.
cjacek said:
What changed ? The year ? Take the Doug Sax equation out of it (and also the "credentials" part ;) ) and you still have a very compelling picture. What is it that Doug said that is not true ? All the points still hold water in 2006.
The year changed - yes. Time reveals things effortlessly. So today you can happily give three hundred bucks per hour to "anti-CD man of wisdom" DougSax for CD-Mastering. I am sure it worth every damn penny ;)
(btw, I am not talking here about author's recording engineering experience/skills/capability/achievements. I am pointing out that when guys like D Sax speak, everything has to be questioned, because he is out there not for a fun walk, but is out for business :D .)
cjacek said:
the consumers who decide what is being put on the shelf. I don't agree with that 100%. .
Consumers suck. They decide no sh*t. :p Consumers are sheep.
Also the big problem is, that all the talks in "Sheep Life"-magazines about what and where the grass is tastier is not about the grass, but rather is about who to be the shepherd(s).
Here they are:
 

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Dr ZEE said:
Consumers suck. They decide no sh*t. :p Consumers are sheep. Also the big problem is, that all the talks in "Sheep Life"-magazines about what and where the grass is tastier is not about the grass, but rather is about who to be the shepherd(s).
Here they are:

That's exactly my point but you've expressed it a whole lot better than I could have done, Doc! :)
 
Beck said:
Before we even saw a CD we were set on pressing one. That's marketing folks... it's how it began and it's still how it's sustained.

Yup!

Of course there are better digital formats than CD, but they all share some things in common. The sound stage for one -- to this day digital stereo at any bit depth or resolution does not even approach the width and spatial complexity of high quality stereo cassette.

I think analog, in general, be it open reel, LP, cassette etc .. resolves space and ambient detail a whole lot better than any digital. As I said before, the touted specs of digital don't mean anything to me.

Oh it may beat it in other ways, but the sound stage hasn't improved since this article. It's not one of those things that will be noticed by most people if they haven't heard the analog master first, but is one of the limitations of digital that we know and can measure. Many of us just don't like it. :(

Exactly my point too. In this way, digital still doesn't approach the resolution or capacity of Analog.

Btw, obviously this doesn't apply to those who stamp vinyl today from a CD source or any digital for that matter. :rolleyes:
 
June 2005
Tascam DV-RA1000 High-Resolution Audio/DSD Master Recorder Affordable high-resolution stereo recording deck
Review by John Scrip of Massive Mastering

http://www.studioreviews.com/dvra1000.htm


"The DV-RA1000 is the first box of its kind anywhere near this price point. DSD recording technology has been prohibitively expensive to get into for any type of home or project studio use. With the current situation of analog tape and tape decks in general becoming more rare, the modestly priced DV-RA1000 couldn't have hit at a better time. DSD isn't really anything new — It's simply a different way of sampling a signal. While a CD utilizes a 16-bit signal sampled at 44.1 thousand times per second, the DV-RA1000 samples a simple one-bit signal at a mind-bending 2.822 million samples per second. The result is believed by many to be more "true" to the original signal than any other format — digital or analog. No tape saturation, no analog modeling. This box is made to reproduce exactly what goes into it. " :) :confused: :rolleyes: :D
 
Although it won't be as fun as a nice half track analog mastering deck, I think I'm starting to warm up to the DV-RA1000 nevertheless! 2.822 million samples per second!!! :eek: :D ;)
 
With the current situation of analog tape and tape decks in general becoming more rare...

Just one of the latest predictions (June 2005) of analog's demise... not that it didn't look that way to alot of people at the time. Now after Quantegy recovered and BASF/EMTEC (RMGI) reemerged it's just another over the last 30 years that has been proven wrong.

The result is believed by many to be more "true" to the original signal than any other format — digital or analog. No tape saturation, no analog modeling. This box is made to reproduce exactly what goes into it.

Exactly what was said of CD, and though so called, "Super CD" would be nice if it were a standard for consumer medium, indeed DSD is nothing new.

Yet, I am an advocate of higher resolution, especially when the device goes supersonic as DSD does, rather than 90 dB down at 22 kHz as CD does. But then there's the sound stage... can digital even do it?

More possibly wonderful things that are developing for sometime in the future when God is in His heaven... but in the mean time, there's the mean time. ;)
 
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Hehe :D The two quotes you replied to, Tim, were exactly what was said about (1) analog's demise and (2) about the CD in the past. You're indeed right and that's the first thing that came to my mind when I read it. How wrong they were and continue to be with the same song & dance. The talk of analog's demise started sometime in the mid 70's if I'm not mistaken and the selling points for the Compact Disc were almost word for word as per the above. It's the same statements carrying over to "new" technology.

The DV-RA1000 certainly looks interesting, not that I'm salivating over it ... (I'll take a 22-2 over it anytime), but your question whether it (and digital) can recreate the sound-stage of analog is an important issue indeed.
 
I don't know what it is, but all of my CD's and DVD's, some better engineered than others, don't involve the listener as well as my vinyls do, on a consistent basis, played back through the same system with middle of the road (at best) hardware. I have yet to define the "IT" factor.
 
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Yeah, the DV-RA1000 looked interesting to me too when I got the brochure for it nearly two years ago. It still does look interesting.

One problem is it uses a disc, so we still have the vulnerabilities we’ve discussed. A fingernail scratch on a DVD or SACD will wipe out more data than the same scratch on a CD.

We still don’t know what the format of the future will be.

Oh wait… yes we do. I’ve seen it (the future); it’s analog. :D
 

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