Cardioid vs hyper vs super for vocals

[joey2000]

So no one wastes time typing, recaps here: Multi-Pattern Microphones: What, Where and How? | Shure Blog

However given all that and a fair bit of researching generally I'm not 100% sure or convinced which is necessarily better than the other (and realize the answer can vary pending specifics). FYI I am not going to be screaming into this mic or (with a few rare moments at most) even singing esp loud or forcefully. Basically it seems the latter 2 are better noise wise....except for that pesky rear pickup. Wondering if that could be handled via a screen behind it and if they would then (generally) be better quiet-wise.

Thoughts? Experiences?

 

[JimmyS1969]

Well, in other posts you seem to not care about the thoughts and experiences from members...

I use a matched pair of KSM 141's for my drum overheads. Also one one in combination with the Rode NT1a as I have already stated.

What I find you are neglecting in your research is the input from those who have used mics in certain environments that are giving you just what you are asking for. Then I see you giving advice from your research to others without having hands on experience. Keep in mind, not everything you read is correct (including my post here). Just opinion. But one truth is this: No one mic is necessarily the 'best' for any one source in any given room.

Only experience will give you answers. Until you have your own you just need to decide what answers you trust and make purchases accordingly.

I am not ragging on you man. Just hoping to help.

 

[mixsit]

Vocals... where?
Part of this ..question, hinges on what is it we think we're trying to solve here.
I've had the chance ..and the means to indulge my fascination :>) with 'good sounding vocals, + 'good isolation. Live, in my home studio, on my own and my band mate's vocals, a bit of other's live work and doing tracks -live w/ the band often here at home.
A few general points.

The main keys for 'isolation are -distance to the capsule, then polar pattern ( I believe to some degree in that order.
Usually the tighter the pattern- the more critical the mic technique, the more the proximity effect, and the more that variable rears its head.
And the closer the capsule- and/or tighter the pattern, the more small distance variations mean not only large volume differences, but tone differences to deal with.
Then there is the increased 'breath, puffs', p-pops component.
Up close, screening (and/or mic technique) start to be quite a factor.

Which is why if a few gobos around your mic area are enough to tame the noise or bleed to an acceptable level, you can expand your working distance.
And make the 'directional vs very tight' less of a concern.

A few experiences, and impressions.
Live- The 'very tight' mics (OM5's lots of experience, ND967 less) are quite unforgiving- to alignment and distance.
I like the RE20 in home recording so much I tried the RE16 live for a while. While I liked the effect in some ways, I was surprised I actually didn't get on well with 'no proximity effect live. Still a very useful mic -AC guitar and vocals 'in house.
The RE20's have been my go to's recording -live with the band in the house' often. It's not super tight, but it's bleed is well behaved, tone is quite stable even if the distances isn't, has quite nice screening (I'll still use a foam booty some times to give an extra 1/2" spacer and breath control.
KSM8 -and 9HS. Very new to me. So far live -two bands, neither real loud, every one is sounding good, and my direct experience is I'm really liking it (them.
I'm looking forward to how they fair vs the RE20 for example recording.
Then again our bass player's wanted to use his SM58 for his vocal a few times live, and it sounds damn nice on him right next to the KSM8's. So, there you go.

 

[mixsit]

My vote for the most 'suspicious' polar plots
http://www.audixusa.com/docs_12/support_pdf/OM5_V2_0615.pdf
Not only -12 at 60 degrees ..no back lobe.

 

[joey2000]

Well, in other posts you seem to not care about the thoughts and experiences from members...

1. That is laughably incorrect. Not agreeing with someone or being interested in a suggestion at times (esp when I made that clear in general from the outset, like in that speaker thread) does not equate to "not caring" about someone's thoughts. If you're being so suddenly pissy now because I didn't want to take some advice you gave, get over it.

2. Pot, meet kettle. You are the one who has more than once ignored my thoughts (ref that same thread, where you also told me to "CTFO" - classy). PS: at least learn how to spell tough words like "dude." It's not "dood."

3. You're also increasingly blatant about being a d-bag but seem to think that putting it in a (very) thinly veiled polite way makes it OK or means you aren't being a d-bag. Also wrong, on both counts.

What I find you are neglecting in your research is the input from those who have used mics in certain environments that are giving you just what you are asking for.

?? wtf are you talking about? You're the first person who responded to the thread, so nobody's given me anything yet. Oh wait, you've given me pissy worthless comments, there's that.

Then I see you giving advice from your research to others without having hands on experience.

And again: wtf are you talking about? This also is not only irrelevant to this thread but make zero sense. Are you on some kind of meds or something?

Keep in mind, not everything you read is correct (including my post here). Just opinion. But one truth is this: No one mic is necessarily the 'best' for any one source in any given room.

Thank you Captain Obvious. This also adds zero value to the thread.

If you don't know anything about the various types of cardiod mics - i.e. you know, what this thread is actually about? - here's an idea, don't everyone' time with useless replies full of nothing but little digs.

Only experience will give you answers. Until you have your own you just need to decide what answers you trust and make purchases accordingly.

More stating of the absurdly obvious and zero value to the thread.

I am not ragging on you man. Just hoping to help.

Yeah right.

 

[joey2000]

Vocals... where?

Vocals in my studio. Nothing live. For the sake of argument, assume a reasonably well-treated room. I'm trying to get a better feel for pros vs cons generally of the 3 mics.

---------- Update ----------

My vote for the most 'suspicious' polar plots
http://www.audixusa.com/docs_12/support_pdf/OM5_V2_0615.pdf
Not only -12 at 60 degrees ..no back lobe.

Yeah that polar pattern graphic for a hypercardiod is.......interesting....

 

[JimmyS1969]

1. That is laughably incorrect. Not agreeing with someone or being interested in a suggestion at times (esp when I made that clear in general from the outset, like in that speaker thread) does not equate to "not caring" about someone's thoughts. If you're being so suddenly pissy now because I didn't want to take some advice you gave, get over it.

2. Pot, meet kettle. You are the one who has more than once ignored my thoughts (ref that same thread, where you also told me to "CTFO" - classy). PS: at least learn how to spell tough words like "dude." It's not "dood."

3. You're also increasingly blatant about being a d-bag but seem to think that putting it in a (very) thinly veiled polite way makes it OK or means you aren't being a d-bag. Also wrong, on both counts.

?? wtf are you talking about? You're the first person who responded to the thread, so nobody's given me anything yet. Oh wait, you've given me pissy worthless comments, there's that.

And again: wtf are you talking about? This also is not only irrelevant to this thread but make zero sense. Are you on some kind of meds or something?

Thank you Captain Obvious. This also adds zero value to the thread.

If you don't know anything about the various types of cardiod mics - i.e. you know, what this thread is actually about? - here's an idea, don't everyone' time with useless replies full of nothing but little digs.

More stating of the absurdly obvious and zero value to the thread.

Yeah right.

Joey, I am only here to give advice as a moderator of the forum. Not to judge or try to be a dick. Actually I was part of the making of the forum rules to say that.

Anyway, the idea of this forum is to get educated advice from those who have experience. If you have experience with any given mic or gear, then your advice is welcome.

But please know that if you come here with the approach of leading while still learning (arrogance), it will be moderated.

Seriously dood (Dude), You are really coming across as a dick right now. Is that your intention? Because It is not mine. Your post above is showing that you do not play well with others.

I do not get payed to do this. I do it because I care. How about you turn off the arrogant 'knob' and talk to me like a friend? I am here for that.

 

[Chili]

For recording at home, I'd stay away from hyper- and super-cardioid patterns. As Mixsit said, the patterns are tighter which lends to more tonal variation per distance moved. In other words, if you move a round a bit while singing, you'll really hear the difference more with the hyper- and super- than you would with the normal cardioid mic. As a singer, you want to work a mic to get the performance the song needs. Back off when you belt it out, get up close for an intimate feel.

The hypers and supers have a place in the world. Great for capturing a sound source from a distance in a noisy environment, or even for a vocal performance in a live setting. Not sure they are necessary, or desirable, for home recording.

ymmv.
my 2¢
etc...

 

[JimmyS1969]

1. That is laughably incorrect. Not agreeing with someone or being interested in a suggestion at times (esp when I made that clear in general from the outset, like in that speaker thread) does not equate to "not caring" about someone's thoughts. If you're being so suddenly pissy now because I didn't want to take some advice you gave, get over it.

2. Pot, meet kettle. You are the one who has more than once ignored my thoughts (ref that same thread, where you also told me to "CTFO" - classy). PS: at least learn how to spell tough words like "dude." It's not "dood."

3. You're also increasingly blatant about being a d-bag but seem to think that putting it in a (very) thinly veiled polite way makes it OK or means you aren't being a d-bag. Also wrong, on both counts.

?? wtf are you talking about? You're the first person who responded to the thread, so nobody's given me anything yet. Oh wait, you've given me pissy worthless comments, there's that.

And again: wtf are you talking about? This also is not only irrelevant to this thread but make zero sense. Are you on some kind of meds or something?

Thank you Captain Obvious. This also adds zero value to the thread.

If you don't know anything about the various types of cardiod mics - i.e. you know, what this thread is actually about? - here's an idea, don't everyone' time with useless replies full of nothing but little digs.

More stating of the absurdly obvious and zero value to the thread.

Yeah right.

Sorry, I was trying to be nice but guess what? **** ***. Figure that one out from experience.

I sincerely wish you the best. In the 35 years I have been in this music business there have been many with the attitude like you seem to have.. Only one arrogant guy has had good success. And he was recently fired.

So what I give as advice is just that. I don't understand why you ask for members advice, then throw that out as bullshit? You came here, you asked. Then for some reason decide that I am a dick for being honest?

Please refer to the PM I sent. I hope you do well man.

I sincerely do not hold a grudge. I have moments where I have been a dick as well, but it wasn't this thread.... Fucker!

 

[jjinvegas]

All I can say is once you go omni you don't go back. No proximity, no pop filter necessary, completely natural sound that just sits in the mix. I don't even use headphones, I set the mic about ten feet away from near field monitors at the minimum volume I need to blend with my natural voice in the room. Fear of leakage is way exaggerated unless pitch correction is required as very careful listening might reveal the backing track being affected. Even that is not much of an issue unless a singer really is way off. And a degree of pitch error by most singers is caused by the unnatural effect of headphones. Get one of those infamous Chinese tube microphones with nine polar settings, set it on omni, and you will be amazed how all that talk of brightness and unnatural high end goes out the window.....

 

[CoolCat]

jj thats an interesting suggestion...non-headphone vocal approach... 10ft away and minimal playback speaker.
thats always been a big thing with a lot of vocal + acoustic guitar recordings the unnatural headphone sound.

 

[cavedog101]

The only place I care to use a hyper-cardioid or such is on a drum kit. A hyper-cardioid under a ride cymbals goes a long way towards nulling out any drums under it.

Other than that most of the reality about the various patterns along these lines and their effects has been adroitly covered.