Capacitor question...(car stereo/sub)

  • Thread starter Thread starter Dogbreath
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Dogbreath

Dogbreath

Im an ex-spurt
My son has a 1000 watt Legacy amp and a 2X12 sub he wants to install in his car but he was told to put a capacitor inline somewhere so it didn't draw so much on the battery and overwork his alternator.

Is this true?
If so, what should he look for?

He asked me but I don't know diddly about it.

Any thoughts, oh Guru's of Audio?

Much Thanks..........Kel
 
Yes, it is true. The capacitor stores energy and acts like a shock absorber for the current draw of the amp. It will help keep your alternator from burning out.

I don't know the requirements for a 1000 watt power amp. Crutchfield is a good place to get this sort of info. (and the capacitor that you need)
 
What do they mean by "In Line" ?? Capacitors have different uses and perform a different function depending on were in the curcuit it is used .....

I" no expert but In your description of why it is needed I believe he means across the Positive and negitive terminals of the DC power input but it would have to be a Humungous capacitor to make much of a differance .....

A Capacitor stores a charge and can quickly release a charge when needed , the problem is it would have to be a huge capacitor to store enough charge for long enough to help turn over your engine or run a 1000w amp , I suppose it might momentarilly take the strain off of your battery .......


Maybe someone with more experience in car audio will chime in with a more definitive answer ....


Cheers
 
Ahh...very cool.
Much thanks for your time gentlemen. ;)

Off to Crutchfield I go. :)
 
Thanks dude....
Just got thru readin about cap placement, farads n stuff. More than I wanted to know. ;)

I think the boy's gonna shit himself when he sees the $$$tag.
heh heh...Funny the difference it makes when the lads buyin. :D

I tip me beer in your general direction. :cool:
 
The point of the capacitor is to act as a buffer when there is a high current draw from the amp. Although the amp is rated at 1000w it does not use 1000w the entire time it is on. However when there is a very low frequency to be amplified at high volume the current draw can get very high very fast. The capacitor works as a momentary buffer so that the alternator doesn't get overworked during these momentary high loads.

Yes the capacitor has to be huge (up to and even greater than 1F) and yes it is expensive, the alternative is replacing your alternator on a yearly basis for much, much more.

Hope that's helpful,
Stephen
 
what ohm does the amp run at?

normally those 1000 watt car amps are somewhere around 2-1/2 ohm while the speakers are operating at the 4-16 range.
 
Thanks guys... ;)

LumstarDude :D
Printin this thread out for him to read. Much good info here.

RocknRollDude :D
Not sure of the details. I'll let him read up on this and make the call if it's worth it or not.

Peace y'all. ;)
 
Hey Dog, I had lots of $$$ invested in my car stereo some years ago and I think I might be able to offer a little advice. I had 4 Rockford Punch amps ( back when they were high dollar) and bought 4 1/4 farad caps ( I think) This will help make the bass response and power sound smoother and thump harder. The lights and instrument panel will not pulsate as much.The amp is 1000 watts, but you need to find out the true RMS (true wattage) of the amp. I ran a 4 gauge fuse block with my set up that you shouldn't need. Mast caps can be expensive, but you can get cheaper ones at www.partesexpress.com they work real well for the money. Last, with all that power make sure he puts some sound deadening in the trunk, doors, and roof. Dyna mat is expensive but you can do other things to keep the sound inside to make it sound much better inside and out. I had about 400.00 in soundproofing in my car and you could hear the diffrence. BTW I posted a question for you a few weeks ago on the sub kick picks you posted and my question was, you mentioned you to pad the speaker before you could use it. What does that mean? I'm not understanding the term pad. I assume it's something you put in between the speaker and line so it wouldn't be so hot. Please let me know what I need. Thanks.
 
Very cool man. I'll have him read yours too.

Sendin you a PM dude...but gimme a few cuz my typing sucks. :D
 
Adding a cap does not save the alternator or the battery, it stores power for instantaneous power on bass heavy passages. Gives the power supply more even headroom.

The alternator will fail if it is undersized for the load. If the car has power accessories then it will most likely have an 80 or 100 amp alternator which is sufficient. Music does not produce a constant current draw, it is in short bursts. The alternator is what powers everything when the engine is running. Adding extra batteries is just for extended listening with the engine off before the batteries die. Adding extra batteries also adds extra load to the alternator so it has more charging to do.

The amp is probably only 200-250 watts rms clean. The 1000 watt rating is the ISL rating (if struck by lightning). The rule of thumb is about 100,000µf of capacitance added to the power supply for every 100 watts of amp output power. So that amp would be fine on a .25f or 250,000µf capacitor. Mount it as close to the amp as possible for best results as it will have the lowest voltage drop to the amp when needed.

It does not need to be fused but make sure that you install a fuse no further than 18" from the battery for the amp power wire so if there is an accident or short circuit it will not burn up the carpet like a dynamite fuse or set fire altogether. a # 4 wire will be plenty. Don't forget to upgrade the ground from the battery to the car body with the same size wire. This is just as important as the amp will be grounded to that car body and used as the ground so it needs to be the same size as the hot wire for best performance.

Run the power wire and turn on wire down one side of the car and the signal wire down the other to eliminate noise induced into the system. Mount the amp on a non conductive surface, don't mount directly to the car body.

As said before, use sound deadening materials. A good alternative is electrical duct seal. Buy a bunch of clay bricks of it and add it to the backside of all of the door panels and any panels that rattle. This will stiffen up the car and make the panels that the door speakers are mounted in more like a speaker cabinet.

Set crossovers and gains accordingly. Also, If the box has 4 ohm speakers then just run it in stereo mode. If you bridge it and parallel the speakers then each side will see half the impedance and it will be a 1 ohm load which is too low. If you bridge it you would need two 8 ohm speakers in parallel to achieve a 2 ohm load bridged. For a safe bridged load with the 4 ohm speakers you have now you would have to run them in series and that would actually decrease the output from the stereo mode alternative with what you have. The amp will play cleanest in 4 ohm stereo. You can sum the inputs for mono bass since it is non directional.

Avoid going above 100-120Hz on the crossover frequency to avoid skewing your front stage. You want to create the illusion that all of the sound is coming from the front of the car so you install tweeters only in the front with midrange and then midrange only in the rear for rear fill. It will take some time to get all of the gains and crossover frequencies set to where they sound great so go easy a little at a time and audition music that you are familiar with to help you set things right.
 
OK.....I can't stand it any more. Don't waste the time and $$$ on a cap for that amp. As a former IASCA sound quality and installation judge, there are better ways to spend the money. There are generally 2 routes to go in car stereo, sound quality and SPL. Either route he cares to go, he will find the short comings of that amp soon enough.
 
They are huge capacitors. They cost around $100 or so and are inserted between the positive battery terminal and the positive power input of the amplifier.

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_211PSC...r-Station-PSC401D.html?search=capacitor&ssi=0

If you mean in parallel with the power lead, that wouldn't do anything because the cap is shorted, and if you mean in place of the power lead, that's a DC block, which means the amp wouldn't see any voltage---protecting the battery, sure, but not very useful.... :D It should be across the power leads near the back of the amplifier. Not sure how necessary that really is, though.

If you are looking for a reason to add one, though.... Although putting a capacitor across the amp won't protect the alternator, it will protect the battery if your peak load is occasionally greater than the alternator's maximum output. The alternator can only provide so much current. When your engine and the amp exceed that amount of current, you're draining the battery. In short, the car battery is acting like a giant capacitor. Unlike a capacitor, though, batteries have a limit to how many charge/discharge cycles they can handle. If you're running up near the peak alternator output current very frequently at all, you're shortening the life of the battery---probably not by a huge amount, but shortening it nonetheless.

Of course, since you're talking about a $50 car battery versus a $30-100 capacitor, it probably won't pay for itself over the life of the car.... :D
 
The car battery holds about a jillion times the charge of one of those capacitors, but it can't discharge quickly. So adding a cap greatly decreases the ESR of the power supply and thus increases the (brief) peak current that can be delivered. Adding a battery would do that too, but you'd have to add a whole lot of batteries to get the same effect.

I'd bet those hybrid cars with their giant banks of batteries might not need the caps though . . .

Car stereos are silly anyway, especially if you increase the weight of the car with deadening material. The basic goal of transportation is to be as light as possible.
 
IMO... the way to do this is to put a big diode in ther infront of the cap... that way when the alternator sags a bit it doesn't drain the cap back towards the alternator... make sense???
 
Car stereos are silly anyway, especially if you increase the weight of the car with deadening material. The basic goal of transportation is to be as light as possible.
You just don't want to go with the flow at all, do you. First you want to rethink the design of all studio equipment and now you want cars to be boring little pods that quietly transport us about without fun and/or excitement. That's what public transportation is for...
 
IMO... the way to do this is to put a big diode in ther infront of the cap... that way when the alternator sags a bit it doesn't drain the cap back towards the alternator... make sense???

The power loss to that diode will be significant. 400W / 12V = 33A * 0.6V (probably much more drop for that current, I don't do 33A circuits like . . . ever) = 20W. That's a honkin' big diode, but I guess it's a big honkin' cap too.

If the load increases on the alternator, the alternator shouldn't sag until the cap is drained?
 
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