Can't get high enough sound level in mixdown

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rmarchand98119

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Here's a weird question: I've experienced this with both software recording packages I use (Cakewalk HomeStudio and SAW Studio 2.6).

When I am playing back the file that I'm mixing down, everything sounds fine and it's nice and loud. I then hit the appropriate "build to sound file" commands to build my WAV file.

Then, when I go either listen to it through Windows Media player or burn it to a CD, not only is it not near as loud is it was when playing back through either program, but it's way softer than any other professional CD/Soundfile that I have.

Why isn't the sound file's volume the same as loud as it is when I'm playing it back through the Cakewalk or SAW?
 
Assuming everything sounds good, it seems like it just needs mastering.
 
rmarchand98119 said:
Here's a weird question: I've experienced this with both software recording packages I use (Cakewalk HomeStudio and SAW Studio 2.6).

When I am playing back the file that I'm mixing down, everything sounds fine and it's nice and loud. I then hit the appropriate "build to sound file" commands to build my WAV file.

Then, when I go either listen to it through Windows Media player or burn it to a CD, not only is it not near as loud is it was when playing back through either program, but it's way softer than any other professional CD/Soundfile that I have.

Why isn't the sound file's volume the same as loud as it is when I'm playing it back through the Cakewalk or SAW?
Click to expand...

You are very likely not matching levels between the CD player and your mixing environment. Try the following:

1. Run a 1K tone at about -18dBFS through your daw to a mixer, turn the faders on the mixer so that it reads 0 on the VU meter.
2. Take the 1K tone track and "build to sound file" then burn a CD of it.
3. Run your CD player into 2 other tracks of your mixer and check the level on the VU meter. If your CD player is using the same reference level as your DAW on output (either +4dBu and –10dBV) then set the faders the same, otherwise you will need to increase the level of the -10dBV output to match +4dBu. It' approximately 12 dB, not 14, see the following article for the reason why:
All About Decibels, Part I: What’s your dB IQ?
4. Once you have your reference levels matched properly, listen to the CD in question on both the DAW and CD player and let us know the results.
 
I think you're maybe assuming a setup far more complex than what I have. I do not have any external mixers or CD players. It's all software inside the computer, being pumped out through the same outputs on the same sound card using the same program. Here's a better example of what I'm talking about:

When I click "PLAY" in my recording software I get an acceptable sound volume. I build that to a sound file. I play the resulting WAV file through Windows Media player and it sounds way queiter than through the rec. software. I then compare it to a WAV file I extracted from [name your professional CD] and my track sounds way quieter than the pro track.

The other reply says it sounds like I need mastering, but I run the resulting wav file through a mastering program like T-Racks, move things to adjust the volume higher, then rebuild to a new wave file, and the audio is still too low (i.e., no where NEAR as loud as it was through the actual recording/master programs, and WAY queiter than any professionally mixed WAVs).

What am I missing here?
 
So are you playing back your "mixed" home recording back through the same media player as the "pro" recording?

The first thing to look at is, does the "media player" have a volume control that is turned down? Check for that.

Next. Even using such a highly regarded "mastering program" T-Racks :rolleyes: , I think you might be expecting a bit much from your abilities as an engineer right now to expect that you can actually get your material as loud as the big boys do. Let's just say that since you have to ask "why?", you give away the fact that you lack the essential experience to make it happen right now. The fact that you are using the "lesser" Cakewalk product tells me you don't have the gear necessary either to make this happen.

As to the "why?" you material probably won't sound as loud right now, I can take a few stabs at why, but without hearing it, I could never say for certain. Off the top of my head, I will guess that your mixing room is not acoustically neutral, probably causing you to mix with FAR too much low mids in the sound that is causing all sorts of problems with getting a good RMS level on your mixes. Again, just a guess.

I don't want to discourage you from continuing on with engineering, but with your limited budget, and limited experience, you are expecting quite a bit right now to be competing with the "big boys" with your recordings. No crime there. The question is, what to do.

The first is to upload some of your work to a place that people can download it from, then go on down to the MP3 Clinic and start a thread asking for people to take a listen/comment/give suggestions on your work.

Next, start reading! Lots of info on the internet. I think in time, if you are wise beyond your BBS years, you will start to realize what you don't know, and the more you DO know, the more you will find out you don't know. LOL At least, that is the way it goes for me! Anyway, knowledge is power.

Next, KEEP WORKING AT IT. I have engineered for quite some time. I wasn't very good at it when I started. My stuff didn't sound ANYWHERE NEAR as good as the "big boys" stuff did. But with the constant "doing", I started to learn how to get closer and closer. There came a point when people became willing to pay me to engineer. It just takes time and a LOT of effort if you want to do it that good.

Good luck.
 
What am I missing here?
Click to expand...

"Real" mastering? :D

Sorry - The T-Racks thing... Okay, I'll stop... :mad:

All right, seriously now... Can you post an MP3 or something so we can hear what you're working with? We can probably troubleshoot something for you if we had more detail. The way the (unmastered) track sounds may reveal a lot.

Also just for grins, try this - Take a (pro) CD track and extract it into whatever you're using (Cakewalk?) and then just render it to a new mix. Don't change it, but run it through the same paces.

If the volume is different, there's something out of whack in the software. Likely it would be something very simple.

If the volume isn't different, then we can start looking at the dynamics (by that, I mean the actual variables, as opposed to the dynamic range) of the mix.
 
rmarchand98119 said:
I think you're maybe assuming a setup far more complex than what I have. I do not have any external mixers or CD players. It's all software inside the computer, being pumped out through the same outputs on the same sound card using the same program. Here's a better example of what I'm talking about:

When I click "PLAY" in my recording software I get an acceptable sound volume. I build that to a sound file. I play the resulting WAV file through Windows Media player and it sounds way queiter than through the rec. software. I then compare it to a WAV file I extracted from [name your professional CD] and my track sounds way quieter than the pro track.

The other reply says it sounds like I need mastering, but I run the resulting wav file through a mastering program like T-Racks, move things to adjust the volume higher, then rebuild to a new wave file, and the audio is still too low (i.e., no where NEAR as loud as it was through the actual recording/master programs, and WAY queiter than any professionally mixed WAVs).

What am I missing here?
Click to expand...

You may be using the same outputs, but you are NOT using the same software for playback, so you are comparing apples to oranges.

It's also true that your mix will probably not sound as loud as a commercial track due to proper mastering, but what you are describing is 2 problems.

Problem 1:

The mix is at different levels when playing through Windows Media Player or CD vs the recording software.

This is due to the level differences between the main outputs of the recording software and the other 2. In order to track down the problems in monitoring you need to use a consistent reference as I described in my previous post. I would bet that if you extracted audio from a commercial CD and played it back using your recording software it would also sound louder than playing it straight from your CD player or Windows Media.

Problem 2:

Mixes on CD do not sound as loud as a commercial CD. This is due to many factors that are usually fixed during mastering. There also may be issues with your mixes that prevent them from being perceived as being loud as a commercial mix even though the RMS and peak levels are the same. This is often caused by the EQ character of the mix, as well as the amount of dynmaics present. I would need to perform an evaluation of the mix to determine the problems here. But it is typical (and necessary) that a mix not be as loud as the final master so that the proper processing can be performed during the mastering stage.
 
masteringhouse said:
There also may be issues with your mixes that prevent them from being perceived as being loud as a commercial mix even though the RMS and peak levels are the same. This is often caused by the EQ character of the mix, as well as the amount of dynmaics present.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I've been trying to tell my clients. Most people don't realize that EQ isn't just to make things pretty.
 
ryanlikestorock said:
This is exactly what I've been trying to tell my clients. Most people don't realize that EQ isn't just to make things pretty.
Click to expand...

Play pink noise for them at the same level, once with everything below 1K filtered out, and once with everything above 1K filtered out. Ask them which is louder to demonstrate.

Personally I don't EQ for "loudness", but for what I feel is appropriate for the mix and genre to translate well.
 
Alright, tell me if this is total BS, then.

I have the same problem in mixdown and even after basic "mastering", of which I just do a little compression/limiting and EQ, but still, my final levels are about 1/2 to 1/3 short of a pro CD. I use N-Track. (Please keep the laughter to a minimum) I get really good mixes, but the final levels are low. I'm very conscious of levels on recording and mixdown. My levels are as loud as they can go without clipping. Lately I've been micing everything with as little EQ as possible, just getting good sound from the signal path. I'm also using less EQ changes on mixdown as a result.

The F.A.Q. section on the site explains it this way. Am I being fed a line?

Q: Why do commercial CDs have higher volume than the CDs I produce with n-Track?
A: Commercial CDs sound louder because they are heavily compressed. You can obtain a similar loudness using a compressor plug-in on the master channel, or even two chained compressors with different settings. For example you may first insert a compressor with actual (soft knee) compression settings, and then a compressor with brick-wall-like limiting settings (with the compression curve knee near 0 dB with very low attack and release times). Experiment with this settings until you obtain a good volume without (excessive) clipping.


Huh?! I've tried this and still...

I'm probably missing a setting, but I have 2 computers. One for recording at the studio, and one at home for mixdown. I move the hard drive back and forth. I get the same problem with both systems.

Maybe a thread about basic mastering would help. I've read through the posts.

Oh, and I did do a search to try and find my answer...
 
PhilGood said:
Alright, tell me if this is total BS, then.

I have the same problem in mixdown and even after basic "mastering", of which I just do a little compression/limiting and EQ, but still, my final levels are about 1/2 to 1/3 short of a pro CD. I use N-Track. (Please keep the laughter to a minimum) I get really good mixes, but the final levels are low. I'm very conscious of levels on recording and mixdown. My levels are as loud as they can go without clipping. Lately I've been micing everything with as little EQ as possible, just getting good sound from the signal path. I'm also using less EQ changes on mixdown as a result.

The F.A.Q. section on the site explains it this way. Am I being fed a line?

Q: Why do commercial CDs have higher volume than the CDs I produce with n-Track?
A: Commercial CDs sound louder because they are heavily compressed. You can obtain a similar loudness using a compressor plug-in on the master channel, or even two chained compressors with different settings. For example you may first insert a compressor with actual (soft knee) compression settings, and then a compressor with brick-wall-like limiting settings (with the compression curve knee near 0 dB with very low attack and release times). Experiment with this settings until you obtain a good volume without (excessive) clipping.


Huh?! I've tried this and still...

I'm probably missing a setting, but I have 2 computers. One for recording at the studio, and one at home for mixdown. I move the hard drive back and forth. I get the same problem with both systems.

Maybe a thread about basic mastering would help. I've read through the posts.

Oh, and I did do a search to try and find my answer...
Click to expand...
There is no way, without spending lots of money on very specific equipment, for you to get your mixes as loud as most comercial CD's. The Waves L2 comes close, but that plug is pretty expensive.
 
Well, I guess that takes the stress off that feeling for now. What is the rate for a professional master? How much is the Waves L2 plugin? I'm not exactly poor and if it's worth it to get as close as possible I'd spring for it.
 
A. Thanks Jay, I'll leave a tip in the jar next time I'm in the neighborhood. :D

B. PhilGood - There's a LOT, (A LOT) more to "loud" than compression and limiting... I worked on (actually tracked something for a change) a project a couple months ago of some nice, relaxed, "folky" type stuff. The mixes easily sat at -12dBRMS without *ANY* compression or limiting. It was very well played by world-class artists on world-class instruments with world-class sounds. The recording chain was fairly humble - M-Audio Solaris microphones into Apogee MiniMe preamps for almost everything. Nothing fancy, but nothing "cheesy" sounding either. No "soft-limit" compression - Hell, I'd be surprised if I had anything riding above -10dBfs on the way in...

And (what was it, last month?) I did a job for Jason (Farview) of some guitar-oriented metal (I don't think there was a non-disclousure, but I won't mention the artist anyway) that came in with *PEAKS* at -12dBfs. That's pretty darn low, but there's nothing wrong with that. Anyway, by the time it was done, it was riding at -11dBRMS or so and *still* didnt sound like it was being pushed.

Why? He recorded really good sounds that worked well and fit well together in the same mix. He didn't worry about volume, he worried about clean quality. I kind of remember the vocals sounding somewhat compressed, but there really wasn't much compression anywhere else that I recall. The mix just wanted to be loud in the end. It had excellent dynamics, and as much compression and limiting we applied during the mastering, the essence of those dynamics are still intact. It didn't sound squashed - It had IMPACT. And lots of it. We probably could've pushed it a whisker more, but why?

The point - Slapping an L2 on a mix that doesn't have the *potential* to be that loud is the easiest way to wind up with a crappy sounding (but "loud") production master.

That potential comes from everything that leads up to the mastering session. The mastering session is there to bring out that potential - Not to invent it.
 
So getting it right in the first place saves headaches down the line?
 
PhilGood said:
Well, I guess that takes the stress off that feeling for now. What is the rate for a professional master? How much is the Waves L2 plugin? I'm not exactly poor and if it's worth it to get as close as possible I'd spring for it.
Click to expand...

The Waves L2 plug is not really the final answer but simply the brick-wall limiting component that was mentioned in the FAQ. For the "averaging" compressor I use various combinations of a Crane Song STC-8, Chandler LTD-2, Weiss DS-1, and the occasional multi-band.

The L2 is part of the Masters Bundle, and I don't believe that you can buy the plug-in separately. Cost is around $900. The cost of the additional compressors that I use are over $3K each.

IMHO not really worth purchasing unless you plan to do this for a living.

If interested in rates, see:

http://www.masteringhouse.com/mastering.html

Much less than the cost of even purchasing the plug-in alone.
 
On the mixes tha John was talking about, I tried to strap an L2 on them (just for car listening purposes) and I couldn't get them nearly as loud as John did at least not without ruining them.
 
i tried useing saw once, and then i realised that i had a choice
 
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