Can audition by Cassette help judge...or fix...a mix ???

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mark4man

mark4man

MoonMix Studios
Crew...

In reviewing my masters (for approval) on different types of consumer audio systems (bookshelf, boom box, auto, audiophile, etc.), I dubbed the ref CDA to cassette tape...to be able to listen on my own personal car stereo.

Not sure if this difference is synonymous w/ the specs of that system itself...or the medium...(& I'll check this out myself by listening to the cassette on my office's bookshelf system), but a fair amount of fidelity was rolled off on both ends of the sonic spectrum (but moreso on the bottom end.)

Now...first of all...this gave me a fresh, new perspective from which to judge both the balance of my mix & the overall levels from the ME...I am assuming because the signal is more condensed due to the limited bandwidth of cassette; & this therefore enabled me to hear the "main" sonic body of each instrument & vocal (without a heap of sub @ the bottom or ultra air @ the top.) I like that...& my mix sounds pretty balanced on this system (& also on CD players, as well.)

But, in some cases...it sounded better in the car...especially on a few tunes that are borderline "sub-heavy" on typical CD changers, whereby those compositions sound a little muddy.

So...if I were to take the lessons learned here & apply them back to the mix...& if I were to, for example...roll off some subsonics from my Bass tracks...are there specs on just what the limited bandwidth of cassette exactly is...or some kind of rule of thumb as to how to proceed on which frequencies...& how much ???

Or would I be better off performing a spectrum analysis of Cassette vs. CD; & judge for myself? (which would be difficult w/ my gear chain.)

Thanks,

mark4man


BTW - Am I even on the right track here in using this medium for comparison (i.e., is this ever done by you guys or your clients?)
 
Personally I'd be careful about using your car's cassette deck as any kind of reference, expecially if it is a factory unit.

There are a whole lot of factory car stereo casette players where the fidelity difference isn't because of the tape itself, but because the casette player itself has horrendous specs.

For example, a decent quality consumer cassette recorder recording to chrome or metal tape w/o noise reduction should be able to give you at least 30Hz-16.5kHz of reasonably flat response with a dynamic range of 65dB. Add a few dB of range if using Dolby C noise reduction.

On paper this is comparable to, and actually just a bit better, than what one can expect from an FM transmission. Yet, how many cars have you been in where the casette counded OK, but as soon as you pop the tape out and the FM radio comes on, the fidelity instantly sounds so much better? I'll bet that has happened to every one of us at least once. That is an instant indication that the tape section on the car stereo is rather severly comprimising the playback quality of the tape, and that it's not the tape itself that's making such adifference in perceived playback quality.

If that is the kind of situation you're in, I'd avoid mixing to make things sound "right" on that tape deck because that deck is adding so much coloration to the sound that it's not a relaible way to judge a mix.

Now, if you're mixing a product designed to be sold as a budget cassette tape in the convience stores at Stop-n-Go gas stations all along Interstate 80, then mixing for bad car stereo tape decks might not be a bad idea.... ;)

G.
 
Cassette playback lies like a big dog - IMO don't listen to it or your head will be twistin like Karen Black in the Exorcist!

mark4man said:
Crew...
So...if I were to take the lessons learned here & apply them back to the mix...& if I were to, for example...roll off some subsonics from my Bass tracks...are there specs on just what the limited bandwidth of cassette exactly is...or some kind of rule of thumb as to how to proceed on which frequencies...& how much ???
Click to expand...

Here's an experiment for ya - it's kind of dangerous in terms of A/Bing and you gotta let your ears recover long enough (maybe a minute or so) before believing what you're hearing again...If you want to just hear the bass stick a 300Hz lowpass on your masterbuss, you want to hear just the highs put a 4K highpass on, you want to hear just the mids put a 300/4K bandpass on. Sometimes it's hard hearing the mids correctly if you haven't got the bass or highs balanced yet - or any of the other combinations. You can also do something similar with low/high shelf - pull one or the other way down to get it out of the way for a minute so you can hear you're bass/mid/high region easier. I'm not saying to keep it that way for for than a short time but sometimes unbalanced distractions can really get confusing at the beginning of a balance job (mix or master).

You mentioned rolling off some sub so I thought I'd mention this idea...but you said this is material you got back from the ME (mastering engineer?). :confused:
 
At this point I think it would be very foolish to be making mix decisions based on how the track sounded on a cassette machine. You might be one of the few people even listening to cassettes anymore. Certainly, most (or all) new cars don't have cassette players, having made the switch to CD or now to having an input for an iPod or other mp3 type player.

I personally haven't played a cassette tape in years, and I know I'm not alone on that. For most practical purposes it's a dead format, and is irrelevant to how you should mix a track.

I think you are wasting your time even thinking about mixing for cassette. Can I possibly be any more clear about this? :D

I don't think the weaknesses of the cassette format will help you judge how to make a better mix for current formats. Best to compare your mixes on CD's and mp3's for that, in my opinion.
 
Man...

...am I glad I came here, eh ???

Thanks very much, everyone. Will heed the advice (& try the methods.)

Thanks again,

mark4man
 
A good recording onto cassette - use of noise reduction, compatible playback, etc is just fine for what you're trying so long as you use other gear as well.
The prob with car cassette, MP3 & CD systems is the quality of the player &&&&& the amp as well as the shape etc of the interior - these things create problems for good audio.
I often dub to cassette - 1 chrome with NR & another without NR & play them on my living room stereo, a boom box, portable, walkman etc using the approp. tape for the approp device. Gives a good idea of how the mix fits diff gear, rooms, systems etc.
A well recorded cassette is way ahead of the average MP3 & can approach CD with the right playback gear.
make a cople of cassettes, a CD, an MP3 & try things out - just don't bank the house on a single format.
 
i wouldn't be too quick to write off listening to a cassette of a mix to gain an idea of what it's like. Obviously there is a reduction in quality, but this is the same as listening to a mix on a set of low grade speakers.

What it gives you is a sense of distance . . . you get a chance of listening to it that is not as intimate as close monitoring through a good system, and may reveal aspects of the mix that you weren't hearing before.

I use a number of techniques to dislocate my previous thoughts about a mix: recording to tape, listening through the kitchen stereo, opening the door and listening from outside. These all provide different perspectives.
 
With the exception of the better Nakamichi's and some of the Tascams, I haven't found many home cassette players or recorders that go out beyond 6 or 8 KHz, except at maybe -20dB. A few (like the better JVC's) did go out to 10 and sometimes 12KHz, but that is rare. That's with FerroChrome; I don't know what they do with Metal tape.

They all claim it, but they don't do it.
 
gecko zzed said:
...What it gives you is a sense of distance . . . you get a chance of listening to it that is not as intimate as close monitoring through a good system, and may reveal aspects of the mix that you weren't hearing before.

...listening through the kitchen stereo, opening the door and listening from outside. These all provide different perspectives.
Click to expand...
I like these ideas and use them also. The problem I have with cassette is that it lies about the top end so bad it gives me ideas I shouldn't be having...my preference is to walk out of the room and loose that close focus and let pyhsical properties of rooms and furniture have their way with the sound kind of like you mention - but I need to be able to reenter the room and have it all come back into focus when I cross that certain boundry. That sometimes helps me judge balance better. Whatever works!
 
Harvey Gerst said:
With the exception of the better Nakamichi's and some of the Tascams, I haven't found many home cassette players or recorders that go out beyond 6 or 8 KHz, except at maybe -20dB. A few (like the better JVC's) did go out to 10 and sometimes 12KHz, but that is rare. That's with FerroChrome; I don't know what they do with Metal tape.
Click to expand...
Wow, Harv, you need to come out of the '60 once in a while my friend :).

First off, throw the FerriChrome tapes away. No self-respecting cassette user uses anything but a high-bias formulation for anything they want to keep. I prefer the CrO2 - preferably Maxell - myself; the "metal" formulations sound artificial to me somehow, not completly unlike first-generation 16-bit converter sound.

I have owned four cassette tape decks in my history, starting with a 1978 department store line Teac, and including a Sony 3-head from the 80s, and a now 8- or 9-yr old Denon 2-head that I still have (though rarely use anymore). All three of these decks have been on test benches for one reason or another. And the worst frequency-response deck of the three was the Sony (ironically the most expensive one of the three also) which got something on the order of 14.5k +/-3dB. The Teac was actually about 10% better than that (I wish I still had that thing, what a find at Polk Bros. for $250.) The current Denon (also a 2-head in the mid $200s) will push 17k with Maxell chrome.

Yeah there were a LOT of awful cassette recorders out there, along with a lot of even worse tape formulations. But get some good quality heads, use a good tape and stay away from Dolby noise reduction altogether, and one could easily get 128k-192k MP3 quality out of a cassette.

It's the horseshit playback decks that screwed everything up.

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
Wow, Harv, you need to come out of the '60 once in a while my friend :).
Click to expand...
What, and leave all my friends? Never!! (Oh wait, almost all my friends from the 60's are dead - nevermind.)

Does anyone even still use cassettes? Can you buy a new car with a cassette player as standard equipment? When's the last time you bought a prerecorded cassette (and garage sales don't count)?
 
Harvey Gerst said:
What, and leave all my friends? Never!! (Oh wait, almost all my friends from the 60's are dead - nevermind.)
Click to expand...
At least their Grateful ;) (ok, bad pun, I admit :o )

Harvey Gerst said:
Does anyone even still use cassettes? Can you buy a new car with a cassette player as standard equipment? When's the last time you bought a prerecorded cassette (and garage sales don't count)?
Click to expand...
Well I personally have never bought a pre-recorded casette as those always sucked, even the rare "high-fidelity" chrome ones. [EDIT: Oh wait, there was that one "London Symphony Orchestra and Ian Anderson do the Songs Of Jethro Tull" tape years ago...I don't know why I got that...probably picked it up on a munchie run ;)]

But you're right. Cassette players are still available as options in addition to the CD player on some cars, I think (at least it was an option on my '05 Chevy), but never as standard equipment any more. As far as who would pay extra for a factory cassette deck, your guess is as good as mine.

I know my Denon home deck hasn't even been turned on in four years. The poor thing is sitting right in front of me, collecting dust. Then again, so is my DA-30...and my ADAT-XT...and my Colorado tape drive on one of my PCs... Anything tape. :( At least I wasn't dumb enough to buy into "Elcaset".

Problem is, I just know that the instant I get rid of any of those (except the Colorado), some client is going to walk in with some tapes he needs worked :rolleyes: .
 
Old folks and blind folks still like cassettes. And the occasional punk band.
A lot of gospel is still duped on cassettes, usually in addition to CD.
 
Good point...books on tape are real convenient - you "read" a few chapters, when you remove the tape and put it back in it's still at the spot you left it!
 
kylen said:
Good point...books on tape are real convenient - you "read" a few chapters, when you remove the tape and put it back in it's still at the spot you left it!
Click to expand...

Same with an iPod though, just hit pause and when you come back it is where you left it. ;)

Although if you listen to something else in the meantime, you do have to scroll through the chapters to get to the one you want. Still much better than fast forwarding or rewinding tape.
 
kylen said:
Good point...books on tape are real convenient - you "read" a few chapters, when you remove the tape and put it back in it's still at the spot you left it!
Click to expand...
I have an 85 yr old mother who loves listening to recorded books in the car. I can say that the one problem with books on tape and many old folks is that they just cant get a grasp on the whole "auto-reverse" thing; they pop a tape out on Side B and put it back in a couple of days later and the machine is playing side A all over again, they just don't get it. They still think that the tape has to be turned over. And no matter how many times I and my brother tried explainig the "Program" button and the arrow displayto her, she just can't wrap her brain around it (no she's not stupid, she's just old.) Now they do have Books on CD. That works pretty well for her because she just needs to remember track number, which she has no problem understanding.

G.
 
Yeah, that's another big one I left out--books on tape. You can plug the tape in your car, in your walkman, in your player at work, your stereo at home, and never lose your place. iPods are a little too fancy still for a lot of people.
 
Good points you guys...I had a gig at Books Aloud in San Jose for a short while and we put our readers on cassette 95% of the time because most were either visually restricted and/or didn't have CD player technology:
http://www.booksaloud.org/home.htm
 
I hate to inform you that tapes are still standard in some vehicles. I believe that the base model Hyundais have tape decks and prolly some other cheaper vehicles. Beyond that, I believe a stripped Ford Ranger only has... Ghasp... an am/fm stereo. Someone prove me wrong please, cause I am to lazy to look (or cant at work, but can do tihs as audio forum surfing is encouraged) and have not looked at trucks in a year or two.
 
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