Cable Snake Returns...What are they good for?

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sjaguar13

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I'm need a cable snake and was thinking about just making one. I figured I could get a project box from Radio Shack, the wire snake from Parts Express, and the plugs and jacks off eBay. I was looking at a picture of a cable snake, and I don't understand the point of the returns. I was going to use 4 combo jacks and 2 regular XLRs as the sends, but I don't know about the returns. I can't think of any reason why I would need male XLRs for the returns. Should I just put in two 1/4" jacks for returns? The only thing I can think of that the returns are used for are speakers/headphones. Aren't they all 1/4"?
 
For stage use, the returns are usually balanced line level outputs from the mixer (since the FOH and monitor amp racks are usually at the stage end). Realistically, there is no functional difference between putting them on male XLRs and TRS jacks. Commercial snakes are made both ways- it just depends on what your FOH gear has for inputs, and whether or not you want to make kluge cables to adapt to it!

For my own part, I like XLR returns- simply because at any live gig I always have lots of extra mic cables, in case one fails, but I seldom have as many TRS cables. So I go with what I'm likely to have the most of, to cover for the inevitable cable failures. Your mileage may vary...
 
So it doesn't matter if I use XLR or 1/4" as the returns, I should use whatever I want to?
 
skippy said:
Realistically, there is no functional difference between putting them on male XLRs and TRS jacks.
Click to expand...

Functionally, TRS is inferior because:

1 - Less contact area, and the "tip" connection is going to wear out soon enough and need to be replaced.

2 - You can short momentarily - to ground. Can cause a nice loud pop while connecting (if the power amps are turned up....while trouble shooting while a band is playing, you don't have the option to shut down amps, nor might I be thinking about anything but getting the connection happening). XLR's connect everything at once!

3 - Good XLR jack enjoy better strain relief, and also "lock" into the jack. It is very hard to "bend" an XLR jack or make it unplug if you knock it around.

Just a couple points in favor of XLR ALWAYS!

Ed
 
What would you you be sending to that needs XLR? All my speakers use 1/4".
 
Line level audio. Your power amps should be at the _stage_end of the snake, not at the mixer end. You don't want to run speaker levels up the snake: you want to run the mixer outputs up it, and locate the power amps as close to the speakers as possible.

On the other hand, if you have a powered mixer (mixer with the power amp built into it) you'll really need two snakes- one for the mic level signals, and a much heavier gauge snake for the speaker levels. Driving spakers with the teeny little 26gauge lines in a mic snake is not going to give you desirable results!
 
Hey skippy, sorry if I came across like I was blasting you. Farthest thing from my mind.

skippy is right, you use the return lines for line lever signals from the mixer. Typically, you will have the mixer out in front of the stage somewhere, but you need to power amps right by the speakers to avoid long speaker runs (long speakers runs equal high resistence on the amp, which equals less power output....).

We use 2 returns for the front of house left and right, and 4 for stage monitor mixes (when we don't have a on stage monitor console....).

I still favor XRL for returns, even if that means you have to get a XLR to TRS adapter to plug into a crossover or power amp. XRL jacks are just more robust! I have had nothing but problems with snakes that use TRS for the returns. Somebody comes along and kicks it and bends the TRS plug and you will have some problems! Also, the contact is not very secure, and unless you get the locking kind of TRS, they can come unplugged very easily.

Stay XLR as long as you can. I suggest this from 15 years of doing live sound systems from small coffee shops to 50k attended festivals! You learn shortly that for anything live sound, if it isn't heavy duty, it will break soon enough, and NEVER at a convienent time!

Ed
 
Never even entered my mind either- I know that you and I agree on the use of XLRs, and over the last couple of years it's been a dead heat to see which one of us gets that out first when the question comes up.... (;-). This time I decided to harp on the redundancy aspect, since I personally always carry between 25-50% more mic cables than I need. Cable failures are the bane of everybody's existence for live work, anyway.

TRS connectors *are* less reliable, for sure. Anyway, if you are going to do this often, it's worth setting up your rig so that you can use XLRs in every possible line-level application (and Neutrik's nifty latching Speakons for the speakers!). Ed's right: if it can get kicked out, tripped over, or otherwise deranged, it _will_: usually right before the egomaniac singer's big solo number. And there'll be hell to pay, you can bet...
 
So if I was going to use this for recording and had the drummer's mics coming in and going to the records, and I had a headphone amp, I would have to put the headphone amp right next to him and run the monitor output through the snake to the amp? It's 24 gauge. So if I needed a headphone amp for everybody. I would need at least two, one in the drum room, and one in the live room?
 
That would be my suggestion, for sure. It's much better to let each player have their own volume knob- otherwise 90% if your time is spent responding to "more me" requests.

It wasn't clear from the original question that you were recording, and not doing live stage mixing. In a recording situation, it's really a huge win to have multiple line-level returns to each player, and have the headphone amp be under _their_ control.

In my current studio, I have 16-pair snake cable routed from the board to each of the playing locations. I build a rough stereo monitor mix, and route that around to all places. I then mult off the direct out for each player's instrument and vox, and route that back to their location. At each location I have a small mixer, so that each player not only has control over the general monitor level, but they can turn up their own vox or instruments to their own satisfaction. This is a _huge_ timesaver, because you don't spend a lot of time stopping just to tweak the monitor levels. I find that it makes people much more productive.

I use Behringer MX602 mixers for each location. This is about all they are good for, and if they get knocked over or get beer spilled into them, I really don't care- throw 'em out and replace 'em. They are perfectly adequate cheap, disposable headphone drivers...
 
I have a 6 channel headphone amp, each with a volume knob. The mixer thing is a good idea, but I don't have enough money right now. If I sent the audio from the soundcard to the amp, then through the mixer to headphones, is that enough were it would hurt the snake? If the returns were mono 1/4 and I plugged headphones into it, would it make it only come out of one side?
 
If the snake uses 24awg pairs, that's probably enough to run headphones through at reasonable levels. The returns really shouldn't be mono (TS), since the cable itself uses pairs and should be able to support TRS.

If you have only TS plugs and jacks, then you will get only one side of the headphones driven. I'd pull apart those sends and see if they simply tied both signal lines to tip. If so, just replace the plugs and jacks with TRS, and you'd be good to go.

Failing that, make some kluge cables (or buy the adapters) and you can drive headphones back into any pair in the snake- not just the returns...
 
I was looking at mixers, do you have one for every member of the band, or just one in each room? I like the idea of everyone being able to adjust their own levels, but $50 a mixer, it's kind of high to get several. I did find some Radio Shack mixers for $20.

If I wanted to run speaker level audio through the mixer, what gauge would I need?
 
I have one for every person in the band, basically. To me, it's worth it in terms of the added productivity I can get. But anything is better than nothing...

I'm not sure what you're asking with "speaker level audio through the mixer". But if you meant what gauge wire would you need to run speaker leve audio brom your mixer back into a seaprate room, I'd say a reasonable minimum is 16AWG. This is for simple foldback, not for supercritical monitoring- youwould want something somewhat heavier for real monitoring (say, 12AWG). It depends upon how long the runs are, what the speakers are like, and what levels you intend to run them at...
 
What would you you be sending to that needs XLR? All my speakers use 1/4".
Click to expand...

Um, most hi end amps that I use have xlr inputs. For the specific purpose of you want your amps close to your speakers(added length=added load). For the typical purpose of using a snake, you want your signal path ballanced coming from the stage, and returning to the stage. This keeps your signal from being degraded over a distance, and cuts down on crosstalk between channels. That my friend is why you want xlr returns.
 
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