SOUND DIAGNOSIS
New member
mcmd said:
Dang good deal! I take it you are going to use your existing monitor, right?
Buying new puter TOMORROW. Need opinions on components, A.S.A.P.
Dang good deal! I take it you are going to use your existing monitor, right?
M
manning1
Banned
todd - with respect i have to disagree, staying behind the curve is a viable solution imho. i have a what i call my second machine here, someone gave me a mbd , i put a 1.3ghz duron it and it does 48 tracks multitrack for all of 200 bucks. in summary you can get lots of tracks on barebones machines today. the way i figure it is i have more tracks/horsepower than the great george martin ever had . so all the rest is how one engineers the song.
used is a very viable option imho. you can then put money into a nice fast
audio drive and nice preamps and mics and the signal chain with the money saved. ive seen too many high power daws with poor sound cards.
used is a very viable option imho. you can then put money into a nice fast
audio drive and nice preamps and mics and the signal chain with the money saved. ive seen too many high power daws with poor sound cards.
wheelema
Boner-obo
I 100% agree that staying behind the curve is the way to go. The bleeding edge is not called the bleeding edge for nothing.
Look at the AMD line... Fastest to slowest...
But what REALLY throws the fat in the fire is that the lowest Athlon XP (2000+ 167mhz RETAIL) is only $57.... is better than the computers that a lot of pros are using right now, and you can upgrade to the current top-of-the-line Athlon XP in a year for what you paid for the low end today.
The manufacturers WANT you to buy the latest and greatest.... that's where the money is, but it may not be what you NEED. It the same with A/D/A conversion.... they WANT you to upgrade to 192, but 48 may be all you will ever really need...
Look at the AMD line... Fastest to slowest...
- Opteron
- Athlon 64
- Athlon XP
- Sempron
- Duron
But what REALLY throws the fat in the fire is that the lowest Athlon XP (2000+ 167mhz RETAIL) is only $57.... is better than the computers that a lot of pros are using right now, and you can upgrade to the current top-of-the-line Athlon XP in a year for what you paid for the low end today.
The manufacturers WANT you to buy the latest and greatest.... that's where the money is, but it may not be what you NEED. It the same with A/D/A conversion.... they WANT you to upgrade to 192, but 48 may be all you will ever really need...
S
SuperSkyrocket
New member
Toddskins said:
So is the 1999 $3800 P3/500 running just office applications?
My 1998 $1300 P2/350 is running just toddler software.
Toddskins
Member
I don't mind answering
Actually guys, I might be inclined to agree with you, but it depends on a more precise definition of "being behind the curve", because there are many gradations along that curve.
For example, I mentioned that I JUST bought a new Dell 8400 system with a 3.0 chip in it. The top of the line is what, 3.4? So, yes, I stayed a couple chips behind the cutting edge, for money reasons. So, in that respect I agree.
But to me, being behind the curve (when I said it), meant the 2.x speed chips and only 256 MB Ram... as a base.
I gotta ask, when you guys talk about getting a great machine for only a couple hundred bucks, or even $400.... what OS are you putting on it? You cannot legally buy XP Home edition for less than $185. ???
So, you gotta be honest about this when talking to others (especially strangers) about computer purchases.
Most highend software won't run on anything less, anymore, than XP. Nevertheless, by the time you add your software utilities to make your system stable and do maintenance (backup, defrag, disaster recovery), you have to spend a few more dollars again.
Then, you want to burn your CD's, for music, right? That costs a little bit, too (i.e. Roxio CD Creator, NERO, or Sonic Burner, etc.)
RAM is cheap, but not free. A music DAW computer that breathes without breaking into a sweat needs a minimum of 512 MB, and if you are wise (Geeeeee, what if you want to add a few plug-ins, perhaps? OF COURSE!!! Who doesn't?), well those eat up computer resources pretty quickly. So, being wise you bump it up to 1 Gig of RAM. That's an extra $100 bucks easily enough. And why not? $100 is nothing! It used to be that an extra 512 MB Ram would cost dearly, but no longer.
Hard drives are dirt cheap... but not free. Most DAW's are spec'ed out at 120 GIG easy, most have more.. and even a 2nd Hard drive for safety, backup, etc.
I'm just saying... it adds up quick, but still WAY WAY WAY cheaper than it was just 3 or 4 years ago.
To be quite honest, if you are splitting hairs over a $1000 system vs. $400 (we're talking about a measily $600 difference)... it's not worth a professional argument. Some people buy bicycles at Wal-Mart, but I suspect that Lance Armstrong would not.
Oh, let's not forget the monitor/display... if you are happy with a 17" CRT, fine ($75 for a cheapo on Ebay)... but for those who spend hours and hours looking at a display because of serious work, that probably ain't gonna cut it. Add more money.
Mouse.... not me..... for my money, the Kensington Expert Track Ball has it hands down... but then, i don't like having to lift a device up in the air when I run out of geography.
Not at all meant to be a jerk, or offensive, truly. I just hope the point is understood. You truly do get what you pay for.... and Windows XP is almost $200 by itself.
Actually guys, I might be inclined to agree with you, but it depends on a more precise definition of "being behind the curve", because there are many gradations along that curve.
For example, I mentioned that I JUST bought a new Dell 8400 system with a 3.0 chip in it. The top of the line is what, 3.4? So, yes, I stayed a couple chips behind the cutting edge, for money reasons. So, in that respect I agree.
But to me, being behind the curve (when I said it), meant the 2.x speed chips and only 256 MB Ram... as a base.
I gotta ask, when you guys talk about getting a great machine for only a couple hundred bucks, or even $400.... what OS are you putting on it? You cannot legally buy XP Home edition for less than $185. ???
So, you gotta be honest about this when talking to others (especially strangers) about computer purchases.
Most highend software won't run on anything less, anymore, than XP. Nevertheless, by the time you add your software utilities to make your system stable and do maintenance (backup, defrag, disaster recovery), you have to spend a few more dollars again.
Then, you want to burn your CD's, for music, right? That costs a little bit, too (i.e. Roxio CD Creator, NERO, or Sonic Burner, etc.)
RAM is cheap, but not free. A music DAW computer that breathes without breaking into a sweat needs a minimum of 512 MB, and if you are wise (Geeeeee, what if you want to add a few plug-ins, perhaps? OF COURSE!!! Who doesn't?), well those eat up computer resources pretty quickly. So, being wise you bump it up to 1 Gig of RAM. That's an extra $100 bucks easily enough. And why not? $100 is nothing! It used to be that an extra 512 MB Ram would cost dearly, but no longer.
Hard drives are dirt cheap... but not free. Most DAW's are spec'ed out at 120 GIG easy, most have more.. and even a 2nd Hard drive for safety, backup, etc.
I'm just saying... it adds up quick, but still WAY WAY WAY cheaper than it was just 3 or 4 years ago.
To be quite honest, if you are splitting hairs over a $1000 system vs. $400 (we're talking about a measily $600 difference)... it's not worth a professional argument. Some people buy bicycles at Wal-Mart, but I suspect that Lance Armstrong would not.
Oh, let's not forget the monitor/display... if you are happy with a 17" CRT, fine ($75 for a cheapo on Ebay)... but for those who spend hours and hours looking at a display because of serious work, that probably ain't gonna cut it. Add more money.
Mouse.... not me..... for my money, the Kensington Expert Track Ball has it hands down... but then, i don't like having to lift a device up in the air when I run out of geography.
Not at all meant to be a jerk, or offensive, truly. I just hope the point is understood. You truly do get what you pay for.... and Windows XP is almost $200 by itself.
Toddskins
Member
To SUPERSKYROCKET
Yeah, my 1999 Dell (which I am typing away on now), runs Office apps, and a few other databases and business programs.
Actually, I was forced to buy the new Dell 8400 because my old SONAR 1.1 software was not working with the USB Sound card I had bought (for my laptop, actually), nor did it run on this desktop. SONAR 3 (the latest Cakewalk iteration for audio and MIDI), only ran on XP. XP required a minimum system that exceeded both my older computers. So, I was forced to buy a new machine... of which I am tickled with, don't get me wrong.
Audio and Video really do push the envelope, and it's just wise to have a system that won't hiccup when doing lots of permutations, rendering, and mixdown.
Lastly, I'm pretty sure that my 1999 desktop, and my 2000 Notebook computers, will continue to do the job they were purchased for, for years to come. I mean, how the hell fast do you need to run a word processor, or do a Powerpoint presentation? lol I mean, the 386 computer was like overkill for the Word Processor.
God bless,
Todd
Yeah, my 1999 Dell (which I am typing away on now), runs Office apps, and a few other databases and business programs.
Actually, I was forced to buy the new Dell 8400 because my old SONAR 1.1 software was not working with the USB Sound card I had bought (for my laptop, actually), nor did it run on this desktop. SONAR 3 (the latest Cakewalk iteration for audio and MIDI), only ran on XP. XP required a minimum system that exceeded both my older computers. So, I was forced to buy a new machine... of which I am tickled with, don't get me wrong.
Audio and Video really do push the envelope, and it's just wise to have a system that won't hiccup when doing lots of permutations, rendering, and mixdown.
Lastly, I'm pretty sure that my 1999 desktop, and my 2000 Notebook computers, will continue to do the job they were purchased for, for years to come. I mean, how the hell fast do you need to run a word processor, or do a Powerpoint presentation? lol I mean, the 386 computer was like overkill for the Word Processor.
God bless,
Todd
M
mcmd
New member
Toddskins, you make a good point! The upfront cost of a new computer may be *sweet*, but if you have to add the OS to a bare bones system, or add more ram, then you have to consider the true cost....
It all depends on your needs. If you are weekend recording warrior (like me) than you probably don't need the same DAW as pro engineer. I wanted a new DAW for under $1000. A new LCD monitor would be nice, but that $400 is a new audio card, so I'll suffer my old crt monitor for a while more!
PS. ...my new system also has 800Mhz fsb and windows XP loaded.
mcmd
It all depends on your needs. If you are weekend recording warrior (like me) than you probably don't need the same DAW as pro engineer. I wanted a new DAW for under $1000. A new LCD monitor would be nice, but that $400 is a new audio card, so I'll suffer my old crt monitor for a while more!
PS. ...my new system also has 800Mhz fsb and windows XP loaded.
mcmd
M
manning1
Banned
todd - some of the older p3 machines can still be used.
i know people getting all sorts of midi tracks and even audio tracks using them.
as an example a young friend of the family was recently given a whole p3 computer system for practically nothing. he badly wants to get into recording and learning.
so for laughs we tried various shareware packages/demoes on it.
it got 12 tracks multitracking and it was starting to hiccup.
then i noticed that someone had forgotten to enable dma on the hard
drive. once i did that he was ecstatic. did 20 tracks.
he said thats plenty enough for me to do songs.
what some people do is take a p3 and put a newer hd in it.
it all depends on the confign how well it works.
i'm not saying its perfect. but with the right hand me down/used p3
it is possible particularly with midi to do a ton of song composition.
a tip to other p3 users look for powertracks versions before 9.
itll probably run nice on a p3 as will many shareware multitrackers. eg n track probably. you dont know till you try like i did.
i was easily once getting 24 tracks from a 800 mhz system.
i know people getting all sorts of midi tracks and even audio tracks using them.
as an example a young friend of the family was recently given a whole p3 computer system for practically nothing. he badly wants to get into recording and learning.
so for laughs we tried various shareware packages/demoes on it.
it got 12 tracks multitracking and it was starting to hiccup.
then i noticed that someone had forgotten to enable dma on the hard
drive. once i did that he was ecstatic. did 20 tracks.
he said thats plenty enough for me to do songs.
what some people do is take a p3 and put a newer hd in it.
it all depends on the confign how well it works.
i'm not saying its perfect. but with the right hand me down/used p3
it is possible particularly with midi to do a ton of song composition.
a tip to other p3 users look for powertracks versions before 9.
itll probably run nice on a p3 as will many shareware multitrackers. eg n track probably. you dont know till you try like i did.
i was easily once getting 24 tracks from a 800 mhz system.
M
manning1
Banned
todd - also i forgot - try this for experimental laughs.
a lot of musicians like to relax on holiday with a laptop and write music.
i notice you said you had a 2000 laptop. IM JUST TRYING TO HELP !
download the demo of magix music studio from magix.de or powertracks from pgmusic.com, and see how well these perform on that 2000 laptop.
an interesting feature of powertracks is a menu option that tells you how many tracks a particular computer confign will run.
i use this feature even for non daw use as it is a good indicator of how powerfull a system is.
if one of these work and give you lots of tracks then you could use your laptop as a mobile little song igea recorder while away from home.
i know quite a few folks who do this.
there are many neat free/shareware music software at hitsquad.com.
try the neat hotstepper sometime. great for doing sequences using real
wav samples.
a lot of musicians like to relax on holiday with a laptop and write music.
i notice you said you had a 2000 laptop. IM JUST TRYING TO HELP !
download the demo of magix music studio from magix.de or powertracks from pgmusic.com, and see how well these perform on that 2000 laptop.
an interesting feature of powertracks is a menu option that tells you how many tracks a particular computer confign will run.
i use this feature even for non daw use as it is a good indicator of how powerfull a system is.
if one of these work and give you lots of tracks then you could use your laptop as a mobile little song igea recorder while away from home.
i know quite a few folks who do this.
there are many neat free/shareware music software at hitsquad.com.
try the neat hotstepper sometime. great for doing sequences using real
wav samples.
S
SuperSkyrocket
New member
Newegg and others legally sell Win XP Home for around $90. It's OEM (no fancy package and literature). The only caveat is you gotta buy a piece of hardware too.
S
SuperSkyrocket
New member
Toddskins said:
We all feel this pain which to me is the best argument for buying behind the leading edge. Niether of our old PCs are worthy of a more stable OS not to mention the new technologies like firewire, SATA, USB 2, etc. although they are about the same age and despite the wide variance in cost.
wheelema
Boner-obo
Toddskins said:
Well, this thread has taken on a life of it's own, and while I would love to address several of the assertions that you made I am just not inclined to take the time or impact my (meager) revenue stream. But, anyway...
- CODEGEN 3308-CA (BLACK/SILVER) MIDDLE TOWER W/300W ATX POWER SUPPLY 3x5.25" 2x3.5" 1x3.5"(hidden) W/ FRONT USB CONNECTOR & 80mm CASE FAN x 1... $24
- AMD ATHLON XP 2500+ 333MHZ OEM BUNDLE W/ Details (ASUS A7N8X-VM/400; COPPER PLATE FAN; 1GB DDR400(512MB X 2)... $303
- LITE ON 52X/32X/52X CDRW +16X DVD EIDE INTERNAL COMBO DRIVE #SOHC-5232K W/NERO SW... $46
- WD 80GB WD800JB EIDE ULTRA-ATA/66-100 8.9MS 7200RPM 8MB BUFFER HARD DRIVE... $61
- HARMA HB-8103-W (KEYBOARD, MOUSE PS/2 & SPEAKERS) BUNDLE PACKAGE... $12
- VIEWSONIC 17" E70FB ( BLACK) .25 1280X1024 FLAT SCREEN... $135
- MICROSOFT WINDOWS XP PROFESSIONAL w/SP1... $134
Now, some disclaimers and codicils...
- There is no profit (for me) in this box... my cost. You could buy from my supplier however.
- Note that the display adapter is on the motherboard. I have used this board, a lot, and it is a solid board and a great display. Add $100 for a solid high memory external adapter that could drive two monitors. Most of the Dell boxes use integrated display adapters with shared memory.
- Note that the optical drive is a CD-RW/DVD. It is not a DVD-RW. That would add about $40.
- I could grind the price down to about $500 by using a cheaper processor, smaller HDD, and cheaper/smaller monitor, plugging in a CD instead of a CD-RW/DVD, and dropping the memory to 256MB. Having only 512MB would drop $75 all by itself. The keyboard/mouse/speaker bundle could be nicer, which would bump the cost closer to $750
Now, I know that Microsoft, and other manufacturers, cut deals with large OEMs which enable those OEMs to drive the price down and preserve their margins. I have to go through a middleman, so my marketing strategy would be to go for the custom mid to high market... I cannot compete with Dell at the bottom end, but for what you would pay for a top-of-the-line Dell, I can be both competivitve and completely 110% to-your-specs custom.
Hope this helps people understand where the component costs are, where their money goes. The more money you can toss at the box, the more interesting and flexible it gets.
Toddskins
Member
Responses
Hey guys,
I appreciate and have read all your posts. Good stuff.
Actually, it made me think again... how an enormous company like DELL can get overtaken.
People, like you, drive the capitalistic competitive system - hunting for the lowest price and greatest buy.... we all benefit from actions like yours. I am thankful, as we should be. In the long run, aware buyers keep the big guys honest, to some degree anyway.
I really was thinking this past month, after buying another computer, how difficult it is (or would be) for a startup to compete with "a DELL"... but it can be done.
Cool,
Todd
Hey guys,
I appreciate and have read all your posts. Good stuff.
Actually, it made me think again... how an enormous company like DELL can get overtaken.
People, like you, drive the capitalistic competitive system - hunting for the lowest price and greatest buy.... we all benefit from actions like yours. I am thankful, as we should be. In the long run, aware buyers keep the big guys honest, to some degree anyway.
I really was thinking this past month, after buying another computer, how difficult it is (or would be) for a startup to compete with "a DELL"... but it can be done.
Cool,
Todd
M
manning1
Banned
well actually todd i DO have to be fair to dell. they HAVE built quite a reputation. i dont want to confuse you further , but i have several acquintances who were total pc neophytes. they just did not have the knowledge or inclination to build there own machines. ithey did buy dell
and have been very very happy with dell. that i CAN REPORT.
but they are not pro audio users. they are just normal home office folks and internet surfers or they have a little biz they run. what they liked was the pc just worked for them.
i and many others on here are a different breed however.
but i DO have to fair to dell. they have many many happy customers.
and ive heard they are very responsive on the support side.
and have been very very happy with dell. that i CAN REPORT.
but they are not pro audio users. they are just normal home office folks and internet surfers or they have a little biz they run. what they liked was the pc just worked for them.
i and many others on here are a different breed however.
but i DO have to fair to dell. they have many many happy customers.
and ive heard they are very responsive on the support side.