Brainstorming session for drum overhead positioning:

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chessrock

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Looking for ideas on minimizing the cymbals and hi-hat in the overhead mics.

Anyone have any favorite methods?

I'm running out of ideas.

Thanks!

-Chess
 
You mean, minimize the bleeding through the overheads ?
Usually its hard to rip it out completly, but I do some positioning tests. Depends on your microphone pattern.
 
Try not using any overheads at all. Saturday night I mic'd some guy over who really beats the cymbals to death, so I didn't use OHs at all, and close mic'd each drum. Plenty of cymbals. If that's not enough, try micing the underside of the drums. Or maybe try moving the overheads way out in front of the kit.
 
XY pair SD's placed where the kits sounds balanced the way you like. Try an angle less than 90 degrees on the XY pair.

Is this a problem only with this drummer?

Kirk
 
A little more clarification:

I don't like micing up every tom, every cymbal, etc.

For the most part, I'm very happy with the overall balance of the kit, just using two overheads, kick, and snare mic and leaving it at that. That's the case about 60% of the time.

The other 40%, I get guys in here who are just a bit aggressive on the cymbals, or perhaps the cymbals themselves have an overly-aggressive tone or timbre. Even in those instances, the balance is pretty close, save for some erant cymbal crashes or chunky hi-hat from time to time. :D

I'm looking for ideas on how to minimize the role of the cymbals. At times, they're just too damn loud. I realize if I mic every single piece of the kit, I can then adjust the levels from there, but frankly, when I do that, it sounds artificial -- like a drum machine.

Was just wondering if anyone has any ideas mic positioning-wise . . . technique-wise (other than telling the drummer to lay off the cymbals a bit :D ) . . . or even if there's a particular brand of cymbal that just simply doesn't make as much sound when you hit it (? ? ? Hmmm. Now that's an idea I might want to take to the drum forum).

Thanks again, and sorry for the ambiguity.
 
Build a Jecklin Disc using Extreme Ghetto Technology, like I did: 2 oktava's using omni heads sitting on a stereo bar, with the disc being a chunk of styrofoam covered by one of those velvet dogs playing poker things

stand near that drummer and see if there is a place you can stick your head where you dont hear so much cymbals, put the disc right there
 
i know where you are comming from

i come from the school of "use the overhead mic as much as you can". often cymbal volume is excessive. couple cures:

-some duct tape under the cymbals to taste. cuts on sustain and brightness. both good things. might sound weird live, but recorded sounds natural sometimes. sometimes. plan can fail!

-use a dull OH mic. beyer m260 for example. wont pick up the cymbals as well. coles if you can.

-use darker cymbals. lots of drummers have cymbals that are nice and loud and bright so that they can play in a club and have their drums reinforced and their cymbals left alone. not good cymbals for recording. Ks, HHX or HHs come to mind as dark cymbals. i just bought an azuka "latin" cymbal. very dark and interesting sounding. really using nice dark recording cymbals are the best choice.
 
A cobbled this together out of a piece of aluminum and a couple of mouse pads.
 

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pipelineaudio said:
Build a Jecklin Disc using Extreme Ghetto Technology, like I did: 2 oktava's using omni heads sitting on a stereo bar, with the disc being a chunk of styrofoam covered by one of those velvet dogs playing poker things

stand near that drummer and see if there is a place you can stick your head where you dont hear so much cymbals, put the disc right there
Click to expand...

Hey, I have a couple variations of that: 1) two Behringer omni reference mics with the ends sticking out of either side of a Richard Nixon mask. 2) The same behringer omnis duck-taped to the center of a dinner plate with a wadded-up towel wrapped around the plate, separating the Right and Left ear. :D

Honestly, that is a good idea. My only complaint is that the stereo spread sounds amazing on headphones, but for the most part it lacks a bit. Not to mention that it's hard on your ears to walk around and find a spot when the drummers banging away at ear-splitting volumes. Everything sounds loud everywhere. :D

How about if I tried lowering the overheads almost parallel to the drummer's shoulders? I read somewhere that the sound of the typical crash cymbal resonates up and down (vertically), so overheads will be particularly sensitive to them. Similarly, hi-hat sound supposedly travels horizontally.

What if I stuck the left overhead mic just above the drummer's left shoulder poinint downwards toward the snare, and the right overhead about parallel to his elbo, pointing slightly upwards toward the toms?

I suppose I'm just babbling now, because if it were me giving the advice, I'd just say: "Sounds interesting Chess. Try it out. If it works, let us know. " :D
 
chessrock said:
How about if I tried lowering the overheads almost parallel to the drummer's shoulders? I read somewhere that the sound of the typical crash cymbal resonates up and down (vertically), so overheads will be particularly sensitive to them. Similarly, hi-hat sound supposedly travels horizontally.
Click to expand...

I record drums the same way you do, and that is exactly what I do if I get too much cymbals. You can have the mics almost outside the drumkit on the sides and behind about the hight of the drummers head (or a little higher). Point them directly at the toms. I have three toms and last time I did this, I directed left mic to firt tom, and right to between tom 2 and 3. You can even have the mics lower and a bit more far away, more like recording the whole drum set.

/Anders
 
If you're getting too much cymbal sound, why not just throw a Low Pass Filter on your monitors? :p :D
 
Someone mentioned the cymbals themselves.Most drummers gear up for live venues and always seem to tend toward cymbals that are bright and cutting.Zildijan 'A's.The older ones.They are quieter and have a better rate of decay for recording anyway being that they are a softer alloy.And the older the set the more likely they will have a huge crud build-up which helps keep down the zing factor.Most serious session drummers carry at least two sets of cymbals as well as several snares for this purpose.But you knew this already.My solution has always been to replace the cymbals with quieter ones i.e.the 'A's and then mic in an X/Y over the top of the drummers head. I tried duct taping one guys set and he had a huge fit.Not good, but it will work too if the drummer doesnt mind.Gaffers tape will come off much easier and not leave such a bad residue as duct tape.
 
Another option is to use a front mic positioned facing up at the toms and out about 1 - 3 feet in front of the bass drum. I am using a U87 for that right now with good results, but I am sure you could use another condenser in cardoid that has night tight lows. Don't forget to reverse the polarity.

It helps all around and really thickens up bass drum and toms IMO.

Right now I am getting a very good drum sound using 2 SP B-1's as overheads. One over the floor tom, and one over snare. They are picking up a very well balanced kit sound, but the toms sound just a bit thin. Thats why I am using a U87 out front pointed up just a bit. I am also using a Peavey 520i on kick and a 441 on the underside of the snare for some crispiness factor. I am pretty happy with the sound I am getting. So my drum sound right now reminds me of Weezer - Maladroit. Which is a very good thing IMO.

Hope that helps
Beez
 
Thanks a lot for all the brainstorms, guys.

I also got a chance to drop by the drum forum, and in case anyone is interested, I got a lot of pretty good advice . . . similar, in fact, to what Cavedog was saying :

http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=78325

The whole idea of smaller and lighter = quieter seems to make a lot of sense. I think I'll definitely be looking at investing in some thinner, 10" hihats and so on.

So I'm getting some different perspectives, here, assuming that it has to be a lot more than just one factor, like mic positioning for instance. I'm definitely going to be trying out what I originally thought was my own groundbreaking idea :D but have now discoverd Boray has been using all along with success. And beezoboy's idea makes a lot of sense, and would have the added benefit of allowing me to further center the stereo image of the kick and snare, obviously.

Thanks again for the input, fellas.
 
littledog said:
If you're getting too much cymbal sound, why not just throw a Low Pass Filter on your monitors? :p :D
Click to expand...

It took me a little while, but I finally got that one. :D Aw, man. To anyone who gets it (has been reading certain other threads), this is a pretty damn funny post. Good one, LD. :D
 
Chessrock,
You appear to live in the MECCA of pawn dealers.What 'fun' purusing such high quality musical outlets searching for the holy grail of cymbals.But that is exactly where you should go.That and the want ads.A lot of guys with old drum sets looking for some fast cash will part with the whole cymbal package for pennies on the dollar.This is where I got my set.And yeah, they record real good.There seems to be an upper volume limit on them.No matter how hard the drummers hit em, they dont go any louder. Good luck in yer search.BTW, I wouldnt go any smaller than 12" on the hi-hat.That seems to be the limit for good sound as opposed to weird harmonics.I had a drummer in here once that had a set of really tiny hats.Maybe 10's??some special shit.Anyway,they sounded okay out in the air to the ear, but he wanted to close mic em for some special effects and the sub-harmonics and weird little noises were impossible to deal with.I even had a pultec at the time and no go.Had to abandon that idea and argue later about the wasted time someone had to pay for..peace
 
tell the drummer to hit the toms harder. If you've goat a drummer that seems to be hitting the cymbals too hard, maybe hes actually not playing the toms loud and even enough. Unless the gear is totally crap, 99% of the time the problem is the player not the gear.
 
That's the ideal, JamesHe, and your advice is sound. I understand what you're saying; 99% of it is in the technique, but keep in mind that 99% of the guys coming in here don't have perfect technique -- and telling them to change it doesn't work. Forget it. You're asking someone to change the very way in which they play . . . years worth of practicing bad habbits. You can't expect to undo all of that in a 5-minute pep talk. :D

So I'm looking for ways to adjust. Quieter cymbals seems to be a more viable work-around, as does different micing techniques. And setting the mics up in a different way is much easier than changing the way you play. :D
 
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