Big Band Recording - Stereo Pair

[rparcher]

I need to do a live recording (in a small church) of a full 16 piece big band and I'm looking for advice on the best stereo condenser mic pair to buy for under 400 GBP ($800). Alternatively I could hire them which means cost is not a barrier. I'll use the mics in an XY configuration and the spot mike various instruments which I may or may not use in the final mix. Thx!

 

[Big Kenny]

akg 451's are nice
oktava mk012 are nice
neumann 184's are nice but I actually prefer the akg's
thats my experience
oh yeah shoepps and josephsons are nice too are nice too

 

[leddy]

Are you set on condensers? How about ribbons?

A pair of Beyer M130's for Blumlein stereo (X-Y with figure 8's) would be just over the $800. I think I paid $425 for the last one I bought. Or rent something like a Royer SF12 stereo ribbon.

I have a pair of beyer condensers (MC930's) that would do nicely. Those are $800 a pair.

What are you doing for the rhythm section? Is the bass electric or upright? Real piano? Just curious - all I record is jazz pretty much.

 

[rparcher]

The bass and Piano are electric but there is also a guitarist and of course drums.

I have 8 inputs in my audio interface, but I'm concerned about making this too complex.

Is there a compromise here? Could I use the stereo pair for the brass/wind and then spot mike/DI the rythym? What methods have you used?

 

[leddy]

The bass and Piano are electric but there is also a guitarist and of course drums.

I have 8 inputs in my audio interface, but I'm concerned about making this too complex.

Is there a compromise here? Could I use the stereo pair for the brass/wind and then spot mike/DI the rythym? What methods have you used?

I would do what you said - a main pair for the horns and spot mics/DI on the rhythm section. I usually do a main pair + spots as well.

Is there an audience?

With a traditional live set up of rhythm section on the side of the horns, then you'll need to consider if you want the rhythm section to sound off to the side in the main pair. Listen and adjust position / mic patterns, etc.

If it's not live (no audience), I would try to put the rhythm section in front of the horns, either facing them with the director (if there is one) in between, or all facing forward. Drums & bass in the center, piano and guitar toward opposite sides from each other.

Other points:

-With only a stereo pair on the horns, make sure you place them where you get good balance, while still being close enough to pick up soloists. I picture them being about five feet in front of the saxes, about 8 feet high, pointing down toward the middle row of bones. I'd also try something other than X-Y. You have limited inputs, and with all the DI'd stuff you're going to need some dimension to the stereo pair. Try for a wider spread than XY gives you. Maybe a spaced pair both pointing down. Also, an XY or ORTF pair will have one of the mics point off to the side where the rhythm section might be, which might create the problem I mentioned already. A spaced pair of cardiods flown above pointing down would be my first thought.

-I'd use a stereo pair of OH on the drums, then (obviously) DI the piano & bass. Close-mic the guitar amp. Pan the piano and guitar away from each other, keep the bass in the middle. I'd worry about the sound of too many DI'd instruments. I'd maybe look for a place for the last input you have to be a room mic for the rhythm section, or place the drum OH's in such a way that you get some bleed from their amps.

Let us know how it goes.

 

[rparcher]

I would do what you said - a main pair for the horns and spot mics/DI on the rhythm section. I usually do a main pair + spots as well.

Is there an audience?

With a traditional live set up of rhythm section on the side of the horns, then you'll need to consider if you want the rhythm section to sound off to the side in the main pair. Listen and adjust position / mic patterns, etc.

If it's not live (no audience), I would try to put the rhythm section in front of the horns, either facing them with the director (if there is one) in between, or all facing forward. Drums & bass in the center, piano and guitar toward opposite sides from each other.

Other points:

-With only a stereo pair on the horns, make sure you place them where you get good balance, while still being close enough to pick up soloists. I picture them being about five feet in front of the saxes, about 8 feet high, pointing down toward the middle row of bones. I'd also try something other than X-Y. You have limited inputs, and with all the DI'd stuff you're going to need some dimension to the stereo pair. Try for a wider spread than XY gives you. Maybe a spaced pair both pointing down. Also, an XY or ORTF pair will have one of the mics point off to the side where the rhythm section might be, which might create the problem I mentioned already. A spaced pair of cardiods flown above pointing down would be my first thought.

-I'd use a stereo pair of OH on the drums, then (obviously) DI the piano & bass. Close-mic the guitar amp. Pan the piano and guitar away from each other, keep the bass in the middle. I'd worry about the sound of too many DI'd instruments. I'd maybe look for a place for the last input you have to be a room mic for the rhythm section, or place the drum OH's in such a way that you get some bleed from their amps.

Let us know how it goes.

Thanks for the great feedback.

There will be no audience so we are flexible in the way the band can be configured. If I put the drums in front of the horn section (I assume you mean in front of the saxes?) do I really need to spot the drums as I am guessing they would be sat nicely in the feed from the MC930's I plan to use? I too am worried about two many DI/spot mikes from the rythym section making things too clean.

Do you get good pickup for soloists or do you usually spot these as well? Many of the tracks will have 2 or 3 soloists.

 

[leddy]

Do you get good pickup for soloists or do you usually spot these as well? Many of the tracks will have 2 or 3 soloists.

It would be better to have the option of some solo mics, but if you don't have the inputs you'll have to move the main pair around until you are happy.

A lot will depend on the room. Plenty of good recordings have been made with one or two mics on the whole band. If you are in a church, I'd assume the room is not the best - so you probably will want a few spot mics or really work on getting the main pair right.

The drums will probably bleed into the main pair (though the MC930's have a farily tight pattern and reject well), but I think you'll have too much room reverb and not enough direct sound - especially for a nice crisp ride cymbal.

However, the room reverb in the main pair might be just perfect to take the DI edge off the rhythm instruments. You may get away with a main pair and minimal use of the DI signals, and maybe one mic on drum OH for a little detail and punch. Hard to say until you are there.

Make sure you can montior things well so you can make good decisions on the gig. Can you patch something into a makeshift control room or are you using headphones?

 

[Han]

The traditional way of the positioning of a big band is the saxes in the front row, the T-bones in the second row behind the saxes and the trumpets in the third row behind the bones.
Why do you think that is? Think hard.

The drums are in the back, the guitar and bass in front of the drums and next to the horns. The piano: depends on the room.

Now think of that typical bigband sound, with that smooth and horny sax sound, capice?

Okay, put your ORTF pair of SDC's where it sounds best to your ears, probably in front of the band just behind the conductor and at some 10 or 12' high. That's your main pair.

If you can borrow or rent a pair of KM184's or another pair of great SDC's like Schoeps, DPA or Josephson's you're almost done.

The old AKG C451's with CK1 are pretty neat as well. Use some spot mics where you think is best, one as drums overhead, one for the piano and one for the upright bas. Maybe they have a singer? Use a mic for the solo's.

Good luck and don't worry, bigbands know how to play and know how to keep their balance. Don't push them, let them play how they are used to, make them feel comfortable and everything will go just fine.

 

[pohaku]

I expect those MC930s will do just fine as the main pair of SD mics. Easily comparable to C42s or 184s.

 

[hairylarry]

one mic for soloists

Hi,

Great thread.

If you have limited channels set up one mic for soloists usually to one side or the other of the sax section and a couple of steps forward. The soloists will walk right up to that mic and play right into it. They do it all the time.

Also just because you have DI on the piano and bass and close mic the guitar it does not mean you have to use it. You will get these guys in your stereo pair. Great, let it bleed.

Then only add the DI to sweeten the mix. Put a little more bottom in the bass or bring up a piano solo. Also find the instrument in your stereo image and pan your DI to match.

I recorded The Tribe at ASU and I only had two tracks. I took a stereo pair up in the balcony and the audience didn't even know I was there. The band cooked and I got some really good tapes. Great fun.

Thanks,

Hairy Larry

 

[rparcher]

Hi,

Great thread.

If you have limited channels set up one mic for soloists usually to one side or the other of the sax section and a couple of steps forward. The soloists will walk right up to that mic and play right into it. They do it all the time.

Also just because you have DI on the piano and bass and close mic the guitar it does not mean you have to use it. You will get these guys in your stereo pair. Great, let it bleed.

Then only add the DI to sweeten the mix. Put a little more bottom in the bass or bring up a piano solo. Also find the instrument in your stereo image and pan your DI to match.

I recorded The Tribe at ASU and I only had two tracks. I took a stereo pair up in the balcony and the audience didn't even know I was there. The band cooked and I got some really good tapes. Great fun.

Thanks,

Hairy Larry

Which stereo pair microphones did you use for the application?