Better ways to record a CHOIR ??

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Produ©er

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Do you know some good ways to record a -say 50 people- choir?
16 available tracks.
Band= bass, drums and keyboard.

Seperate the band from the choir?
Choir has to use headphones (50!?)

What mics for the choir, how many, where to place them?

How to divide the available 16 tracks?

Any good suggestions are welcome, but please answer if you have experience in this field...

Thanks !!
 
No experience, but...

I think you should investigate the stereo-micing techniques normally used for orchestra's and choirs. Since it's quite a big group, you could use extra mics on the sides (what do they call those? Sidefield mics? I forgot...), and maybe room mics.

For the headphones, you could maybe rent the equipment, another option is to just record it as you would do it live... Close micing the instruments, and stereo-micing the choir, work with placement to minimize crosstalk... (panels around drums and bass?)
 
Thanks Roel for your reply....

Do you know if I use XY and extra mics on the side if the left mic is panned as left mic on the XY and right mic as right XY-mic?

I think it should be, phase-troubles etc, do you know how to pan the outer mics in relation to XY-mics?

Greetingz
 
No idea on how to pan them... Never recorded anything using stereomicing. My best bet would be: pan them to where it sounds best, and check the phase of the mics before recording, and place them accordingly?

I don't know... Somebody else take it from here?
 
Band and choir at the same time? What a headache. I have my annual gig doing simultaneous FOH/recording of a 150-voice women's chorus and a 7-pc Dixieland band coming up Dec. 1, and I get hives just thinking about it.

What I do is try and get the chorus up in the FOH mix to balance the levels with the band, and then do a good XY recording of the room from about row 10 in the audience, live to 2 track. I separate the FOH and recording chores _completely_. This may not work for you, but it's the only thing that works for me: trying to do both sophisticated live recording and FOH with a paying audience in the room is too high a workload. If I can get it to sound right in the room, then the paying customers get their money's worth, and the live-to-2 recording is then pretty much a nobrainer. Trim the levels, stick a stereo limiter on the feed to handle the applause intervals, and then forget it and mix for the house. The performance is more important than my recording of it, in that setting.

I mic the chorus with 4 or 6 hypercardioids hung from overhead and pan them in the FOH mix for the right separation (yes, I do do a stereo FOH mix for this occasion). I need the hypers because the band sets up right in the big-ass middle of the chorus risers: trying to do anything with a loose pattern just leads to bleed and mud. I use Oktava MC012s for that chore, and AKG C535s on stands for any vocal soloists. The miking I use for the band doesn't apply at all for your situation, unless you have a tuba to deal with- I finally found the perfect tuba mic... (;-)

Are you doing this as part of a live gig, or do you have the luxury of mucking up the sightlines in a more studio-like setting- and even, perhaps, setting up in the round? If the band is electrified, you may have the same problems I do getting any kind of a balance with an XY setup: the band just roars over the top of all the vocal subtleties. You may need to try splitting into sections and micing with a tighter pattern (although perhaps not as tight as the hypers I have to use). If it's not live, you can try goboing the hell out of the band as well. A simple XY setup in front of the choir is likely to just get _killed_ with the bleed from the band. But, just the same, the chorus is probably used to singing against that very roar, and will have a hard time with tuning and phrasing if they _don't_ get that. You have to work with what they need in order to perform, first and foremost, and then figure out how to print it.

Definitely set up the XY pair and print it to 2- that's your safety. I just doubt that it'll be that useful, unless you can set up the band directly behind it (in the round: mics in the middle, performers all facing each other). and back up the pair with a gobo...

And I'll bet you a beer that the choir would sound like hell if they were trying to monitor through headphones. Large vocal ensembles are _extremely_ sensitive to the acoustics of the space they are performing in: take that sense of space away by clamping on cans, and you get hammered dogmeat on wheels- not music!

This combination makes your job as recordist very, very hard. Sometimes, you just have to get them what they need, and then work with it, bleed and all. Keep a selection of tight mics available, is all I can say. And use your ears in the room; creative placement will help a ton with the inevitable bleed issues.

Hope that helps a little: every situation is different, just like every room and every group of performers...
 
If the choir takes priority, you could try convincing the band to not use amps and use in ear monitors or headphones and electric or damped/triggered drums, that should allow you to have an almost silent stage to which you can then add only as much monitoring as the choir needs to hear the band and then mic up the choir as usual, you will still get leakage from the monitors but it should be better than live drums.
Of course this depends on a lot of things, budget, size of the stage, etc.
 
Hey. I have a *little* live choir experience, NOTHING like what you are doing though. But I have a few suggestions:

1) Keep the rule of thirds in mind when miking... in other words, Put each mic no less than 3 units away from each other, where one unit is the distance of the mic to the choir. Or is it the other way around... he he... i forget. shoot. sorry. Check it out though. Hope that's not too confusing. This is to help prevent phasing issues.

2) I would use monitors too, not headphones, especially because of the fact that this time the sound is coming from their head... Hopefully you can just keep the levels low, and pray that it doens't bleed all that much.

take it all with a grain of salt. hope that this was of SOME help anyway.
 
Thanks guys for your help! Skippy Ya Yee!

I decided to separate the band. It's a STUDIO preformance, so I do the band day 1 and choir day 2 ! I feed the choir with the MIDI keyboardtracks. So you suggest a few small speakers/hot spots in front of/and behind the choir instead of headphones? I could suggest to keep one ear free.... mmm..
The studio is 20 x 20 m. 4m. high
I don't think I can get a good image with only 1`XY pair. I guess I have to mic the sides aswell...
How would that setup be:

C H O I R

x xy y


Is x left panned and y right panned? I would like to use AKG 414 mics. How high up do I have to put them? At what distance.

Does anybody know what DARK FADER meant with "The rule of thirds"...sounds a little new-age-like....;-)

I would like to try a mic behind the basses, for a beter defined lowend, and because there are less guys than girls in this choir..
Is that a good option?


Maybe I can get a small selection of each group (bass, ten, alto,sopr) and tape them closemiced, mix to two tracks/maybe keep them on seperate tracks, and tape the whole choir the next day to two tracks, and try to get closemiced/choir in balance...

Then I have to record the drums with only 4 tracks, I "only" got 16 tracks you know...


Thanks for your advise on this one!
 
Rule of thirds: if you set up a mic at some distance X from a sound sounce, any other mic should be at least 3 times X away. So if you set up your XY 4 feet from the "front" of the chorus, the rule says that any side mics ought to be 12 feet away from the center XY pair.

This really primarily applies to point or near-point sources: a guitar amp, a sax, a vocalist. It gets very murky with a large vocal ensemble, because you have a very distributed sound source. With a chorus, there is no single point from which the sound radiates, so you have many signal paths that create delays to the mics. The phase cancellations that you seek to avoid are often covered up by the presence of louder (closer) members of the chorus, so you can often cheat in the side mics to less than the full 3X distance without running into phase problems (comb filtering being the worst of them).

Other times, you can't . The Mark 1 Earbone makes the call.

If you have enough single ear cans, try them- and then try a take with monitors in front, and tight pattern mics to reject the bleed. See which one has less tuning problems!

As for panning: print each mic to a separate track, and then play with it as you mix. Your suggested x-x-y-y panning is the starting place, but let your ears be the guide: there is no single right answer, especially if the director does funny things with placing the voices on the risers...

I wouldn't mic from behind, except on a lark- use up a track on it, but be prepared to leave it out of the final mix. You'll get lots of chest voice from in front, just by playing with mic placement.

I'd still recommend doing the whole chorus in one pass: you just get a little something extra in the performance when everybody can hear the whole chorus work the space. I've had no luck with overdubbing sections. True pros can do it, but the folks I work with work much better when they all make the air move at once...

Best of luck!
 
I though we were talking one shot live recording in front or an audience. Since it's studio, I would try to go with cans first, since you will have more time to set up a good headphone mix and the ability to stop and fix it if it isn't working. If they really cant adjust to the phones then try the 'stage' monitors, actually like skippy said why not try it both ways and see which one gives a better result.

Good Luck.
 
Get 2 quality condenser mics in a stereo XY pattern, get them about 6 feet off the floor, maybe 8-10 feet apart, and 10 feet back from the band....record away! ...and use the same technique to do the choir.

Isaiah
 
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