Best Way To Record Guitar and Voice

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GeorgeIV

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Hi,

I'm new here so here's my newbie question:

I would like to record my own songs playing an acoustic guitar, my vocal and maybe some harmonica. You know, folk music.

I'm wondering if this can be done "sucessfully" all in one take with me playing guitar and singing and the ocasional harmonica part. What I'm looking for is a more "live" sound and not so much overdubbing. I've already made a few attempts and so far it's not too bad, but I really have a feeling that I'll have better control if I do it on separate tracks. So, are they any brave souls out there who think this is possible?

I'm using Cakewalk Home Studio and I'm using the BOSS BR-532 to plug in the guitar and the microphone. I'm used to using 4-track cassette decks so doing digital is new to me so any mixing tips would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks everyone. This seems like a great place to learn.

GeorgeIV
 
Welcome!

George,
Welcome to the BBS! Yes it is a great source of info.

What you desire to do is actually done all the time quite successfully, but it gives engineers the fits. But since you are the engineer here is how you do it.

You must have the ability to record at least 2 discrete tracks at once (obviously) and some way such as a 2 channel preamp or mixer in order to handle two different microphones. (or one direct in for the guitar and one microphone).

I am not familiar with the Boss unit can it do that?

Anyway the trick is to get as much seperation between the vocal mic and the acoustic guitar as possible. There are several ways to do it. With a 2 mic set up the best way to do it is using 2 condensor mics that have the ability to operate in figure 8 mode.
(This is the shape of the pickup pattern) it looks kind of like O|O looking down on the top of the mic. You would place the guitar mic on its side with the circle part of the pattern towards the 12th fret area (or wherever sounds best) and the line (the null or area of weakest pickup) towards your mouth. You would then set up the vocal mike just the opposite, with the null pointed toward the guitar.

A lot of Folk singers (aka Carly Simon et-al) use this technique on their albums.

Of course this is only one way. If you can rustle up 2 multipattern mics try to use the most directional mic you can. Some have resorted to putting a small home made baffle of sorts bettween the 2 mics just to help seperation you just have to experiment.

If you like the sound of your guitar directly plugged in (assuming you have internal pickup) that solves that at well.

Anyway make sure if you are using a mixer you can pan the channels so as they are not mixed before going into your computer. Then just record the left and right channels as 2 discrete inputs.

I hope I have helped some and not further confused you. Feel free to ask more questions or tell me to shut up.

tmix
 
If you have a good sounding room, a nice condenser mic, a nice pre-amp, you can get good results just recording one (yep ONE!) track which captures the combination of the guitar and voice. Just stick the mic ~ 1 foot to 18 inches in front of you at around mouth level. This will do a good job of capturing the feel of the performance. I often supplment this with another condenser pointed around the 12th fret of the guitar and blend the two. Getting complete seperation with 2 mics is difficult, but possible using figure-8 mics as described by tmix. I've had decent results with a SM58 on vocals (barely picked up any guitar) and a Soundelux U97 in Fig-8 on guitar, angled in such a way that its null was pointing towards my voice.

Here's a song I did with two mics - My U97 in Cardiod on vocals, and a Neumann KM184 on guitar. This didn't have much seperation between the tracks, but I was able to get a good blend of both mics.


What mics do you have?
 
George,
You made a good choice of a place to learn, I've learned a lot in just a few days myself. Like you I am new to digital so I'm learning too, I have had a bit of experience with recording live sounding music though. The biggest problem with recording acoustic guitar and vocals at the same time has always been getting and keeping good seperation between the two. Good mics and their placement is the only way I have found that works.
Remember an inch or two can make a big difference in how a mic picks up a sound! Another trick you might try is to rig some sort of baffel to keep some sepreation, I've used cardboard, styrofoam and duck tape to do this more than once with surprising results ( looks like crap but it works so unless you are doing a video at the same time don't worry about it.) Experiment with what you have to work with, record something, play it back, if it's not quite what you want, make adjustments and try again.
Keep comming back to BBS and asking questions, someone has been there, done that and will help you through it too.
Dani
 
George,
I forgot to mention... the more specific or technical your guestions are, the more specific the responses will be, there are some pretty smart people hang out here.
dani
 
Yo George, the responses above are all very good, but they assume you have $1000 or more worth of mics to go with your $400 recorder, which I doubt. They are also assuming that your BR-532 has multiple mic inputs, which it does not. I see 3 solutions to the problem. 1.-Record the tracks separately, by overdubbing. You can get the live feel, but you have to learn to play without singing, and sing without playing, which is a whole new skill set. I know how hard that is, I do it every day. 2.-Get a mixer. If it's the best you can afford, get a Behringer. If you can afford it, get a Mackie, Soundcraft, or Yamaha. You don't need a big one with a lot of tracks. Use directional (cardioid) dynamic mics that aren't so sensitive, to reduce bleed, and because they're cheap. Put a Shure SM58 on your voice and an SM57 on the 12th fret of the guitar, adjust the levels of the mixer to taste, and send the signal from the "tape out" jacks on the mixer to the stereo line in on your 532. 3.- Use stereo recording- This will also require a mixer. Use 2 mics, either small diaphagm condensers, such as Oktava MC012's or Marshall MXL603's, or for wicked cheap, a pair of omni electret condensers, such as Behringer ECM8000's (less than $40 each), and send them to the mixer, and the tape outs to the 532. Both of the systems above I use, with a Behringer mixer (about $80) into a Korg PXR4 Pandora, which is quite similar in capabilities to your 532. And get a 128mb Smart media card for the 532, or you'll be running out of memory very soon.- Hope this helps.-Richie
 
GeorgeIV said:
I'm wondering if this can be done "sucessfully" all in one take with me playing guitar and singing and the ocasional harmonica part.
Click to expand...

I know I couldn't. I always stink it up when I try to do things in one take. LOL Maybe 40 takes and few hundred edits...
 
I'd like to really thank everyone for the responses to my initial post. I can't tell you all how much I've appreciated your input.


Let be get a bit more "detailed" as to what I am trying to achieve.

Initial Goal: Simply to create demos of songs that I write. Although I will be doing mostly guitar and voice, there are some things I'd like to record with several overdubs.

Main Goal: To create CD quality sound to burn onto CDs vs. going to a Professional Studio to record. (not to worry about burning, I know how to do that. ;>)

Here's how I am recording:

I plug in my mic(an AT MB100H Cardioid) and a Martin Guitar (Model - DXME with a Fishman Classic Sonicore pickup) into my BR-532. From there I go from the line out into my PC and use either Cool Edit Pro 2.0 or Cakewalk Home Recordig Studio to record.

My intial goal has been met in that I have some decent quality demos of my music.

To achieve the main goal I have quite a ways to go. Firstly, I'm getting some distrortion when my singing increases in amplitude. Now I know I should be using a 'preamp' for the mic and here's what I'm considering short of buying more equipment.

Plug the Mic into my Vox Valvetronix 120 amp and then from the line out from the amp into the BR532. This should help my 'distortion' problems with the mic.

Now I know I can probably solve the problem of doing it all in one take by recording all of this on different tracks as Richie suggested. I've done that before, but it just doesn't feel natural to me. But that may what I'll have to do to be able to get the mix right.

And as Richie mentions, I don't have high end mic, (although I'm going to at least invest in getting a SM57) so the quality there is going to be limited. Gordone, I really liked the sound you got when I listened to your mp3 file.

Again, I really am thankful for your input.

GeorgeIV
 
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In general, George, I think most people would say you can get better sound from an acoustic with mics than direct, but with the BR532's pres, you might do pretty well direct. I'll bet a Fishman Prefix Plus would drop right into the space of that Fishman Classic, with no new holes in your guitar. I've got one in my Taylor, and I've gotten 2 cuts off it good enough to make the project album. The Prefix Plus has a very similar pickup in it, but it also has a small condenser mic, and you can blend the two signals and if you want, process them separately.
I don't like the recorded quality of either the pickup or the mic alone, but just the right blend of the 2 is pretty damn good. I don't believe your plan for amping your voice will help you with your distortion problems. More likely you are clipping (overloading) the preamp in the 532. Reduce your input trim and boost gain later, either in the computer or in the 532.
In the end, if you record vox and guitar simultanously, there will always be bleed from the guitar to the vocal mic, and with the mic in a Prefix Plus, theres just a little in reverse, from vox to guitar. I've done a number of scratch tracks that way, and it can sound pretty good. Good Luck.-Richie
 
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