Best Isolation - Bricks, Blocks, Boards???

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Rhinohorn

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Firstly, hello to anyone who reads this.
I live in South Africa and am obviously BRAND NEW here, so before I even begin with my query, I must please ask that anyone offering advice check back to this thread in 24hrs for any follow up questions I may have ... as we are about 10-12hrs 'ahead' of you here, so most of you guys in the States will be (hopefully) offering your tips whilst I am fast asleep ... and my Internet connection is at my wife's workplace where I can only be during her office hours (which probably ROUGHLY equates to being around Midnight until around 8.00am US time). I am merely requesting the above incase anyone does offer any advice and then thinks that I am being ungrateful by not responding or whatever.
OK ... now onto my question.
I really have tried to research all of this (including scouring this VERY useful forum), but perhaps my question is not a repetitive one, as it is directed at first hand, or should I say ... experienced ... comment as opposed to a general rule of thumb.
My planned studio will be built "directly" onto my backyard-neighbours boundary wall, which is about 7ft away from his house (his bedroom is also the closest room as luck would have it!!).
I could go on here for AGES describing my planned studio dimensions etc (in order to explain why I kind of "have to" build directly onto the wall as such), but I will rather supply any additional info as a follow up if someone needs to know more in order to offer an alternative solution.
My question (eventually!!) is as follows .... in the REAL world of studio building (on a typically tight budget!!) .... will I actually be able to completely isolate a pounding drumkit, a fulltilt JCM2000 and a pumping 4x10 Bass Cab in the live room as well as a pair of HR824's from the control room ... from a SLEEPING NEIGHBOUR in the death of the night........ if I where to rebuild the existing boundary wall (I have to raise it by law if I am to build directly on to it anyway) with either brick or block, then build a second brick or block wall about 6 inches inside of that (both of these walls will be approximately 9 inches thick), then build as best as I possibly can, a floating wooden shell using 2 x 3/4 inch plywood skins (including if possible, a floating floor etc)??
I plan to lay a solid 10 - 12 inch concrete slab as a floor as well as a 10 - 12 inch slab as a ceiling (both of these are relating to the "outside" shell as such). I would then install a double layer of plywood as a ceiling for the inner brick wall PLUS a further double layer of ply for the ceiling of the floating room as such ..... if all of this is making sense??
Aside from the above "situational and direct question" .... I was actually trying to get to the point of possible comments as to the degree of isolation people out there have achieved in the real world ..... AND also suggestions as to building out of clay bricks or concrete blocks??
The SAE site spoke of Besser Blocks having a higher STC then bricks in Australia, but I am unsure as to how to make a decision regarding our materials here in South Africa.
Wheeeew .... sorry for the HUGE posting and I will be back tomorrow to check on any replies.
Thank You!!
Steven
 
Hello Steven and welcome to the board. From what I understand, you will in effect, have TWO brick or block walls and an interior shell, is that correct? There will be about a 6" airgap between the two block walls, correct? There is some information that needs to be filled in.

I am certainly no expert but I can tell you this. First, IF the structure you are building is 6" away from the existing boundary wall that isolates your neighbor, where and how does your new structure touch or tie in with it? This is why I ask.

IF the 6" airgap between the two block walls is sealed, via other walls, foundation and roof, then you are building a 3 leaf system, which actually can be WORSE for low frequency than a 2 leaf system. However, let me quantify that statement. Again, I am no expert, but I think you need to provide further detailed construction details, as a qualified answer is only as good as the information you supply. For instance, IF the airgap between the block walls were vented, and the airgap between your NEW block wall and interior shell were sealed and insulated, then it should qualify as a TWO leaf system. Here is the deal. The best bang for the buck isolation is TWO centers of MASS, seperated by a sealed airgap with insulation. I would certainly think that the THIRD leaf, which is the existing block wall would aid in the isolation, but if the airgap between the block walls is sealed, it in effect becomes a third leaf, and forms a coupled connection to the resonant system as a whole. This can actually lower the transmission loss, but I'm not the one who can tell you the real figures. Since you have visited the SAE site, I would have figured you have also visited John Sayers site, as he designed the original SAE site. But it appears you have not. Most of the qualified people who can answer your question visit here sometimes, but you will get a faster response if you directly post your question there. Here is the link.
http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=2

I would read all the "stickys" in conjunction with posting. This will arm you with pertinent info, as there is LOTS to learn, as people expect a person to read first, ask second :D if you don't find what you are looking for. Although your question is directly aimed at a solution which is particular to your case, there is other info which relates, and would enlighten you to other aspects which you may not have considered. Hope this helps.
fitZ
 
Hello Rick (fitZ) and thank you. I have obviously not researched enough yet as I have not yet encountered info regarding the 3 leaf issue etc.
I have been to John's site, but as my numerous Google searches have always brought me to this forum (although most topics were from 2003 era??) I thought I would register here and post my question.
I will be posting on that forum tomorrow, but while I am here, I will push my question back at another angle if you dont mind.
I basically have around 6 metres (20ft) from my house up to the boundary wall and I can probably use around 33ft of yard as a length if you know what I mean.
I need to leave a space of around 80cm (32") between my house and the studio as my bathroom and kitchen plumbing lines are directly out back .... so I am left with around 17ft of width.
I would like to end up with two rooms of around 13ft wide by about 16ft long with a ceiling height of around 10ft (one as a control room and one as a live room).
As my main concern at this stage is isolating my neighbours and taking into account the fact that if I want to end up with 13ft INSIDE the studio walls and having around 17ft to play with .... I obviously have about 4ft available for walls and treatment.
It was with this in mind that I thought that by INCLUDING the boundary wall (which will have to be rebuilt anyway) I would almost be "adding" the extra 9" or whatever to this ROUGH concept ...... however ..... taking your advice into account ..... I would rather start a seperate building structure a few inches INSIDE the boundary wall, which brings me to another question.
Once this "new" and "seperate" outer shell has been constructed out of brick or block (any suggestions as to which is better??) ... am I right in then assuming that it is best to now "float" a heavily cladded (2 or 3 layers) wooden/fibre board shell on neoprene blocks inside of this single outer brick/block shell??
And assuming that all doors and windows are done properly etc .... is it actually practical to assume that this type of construction will isolate a loud band from a neighbour less than 10ft away ... or am I being completely unrealistic and is it more a case of "reducing" the sound to an acceptable level??
Thanks again for any answers.
ps. I just popped into the wifes office to "collect some work for her" ... hence being able to repond sooner than I had originally said.
Steven
 
The problem with giving advice across international boundaries is that there may be legal problems that we are unfamiliar with.

For example if your 'boundary wall' is anything like the block wall fences we have in Southern California suburbs there is no way that you could incorporate them into a structure, even if you beefed up their foundations and internal reinforcing to meet structural standards. The reason is that usually the wall is placed directly on the property line. That is usually allowed because it is a shared ownership with both property owners. If one property owner decided to incorporate it into a structure, however, it would be impinging on the other property owner's land. The other thing that would become involved in the US at least would be property setback requirements. In general you cannot build right to the edge of your property.

I guess what I am saying is that we can advise you on sound because the laws of physics know no geographic boundaries, but those may not be the laws that really limit you.

Now to return to your original question you CAN get that degree of isolation but:

You must have a really heavy outer wall leaf, a really heavy inner wall leaf, and complete decoupling between them. It has to be a complete box within a box costruction.

You must pay extremely close attention to construction details and flanking paths for sound. A tiny flaw in workmanship or design can wreck the effectiveness of a lot of materials.
 
Thanks for that 'Innovations' ... in South Africa there is a legal 2metre (about 7ft) boundary limit, but if written permission is granted from the neighbours, then you can actually build right up to the wall as long as there are no windows on the side of the construction facing the neighbours property AND it is also prefererred if the wall is high enough (or is built high enough) to hide the roof etc of this building .... in effect the neighbour then ends up with a much higher wall as the only visible change.
In my case I would have taken down the existing lightweight prefab wall and thrown a heavy foundation in order to build up a high wall etc ... but once again, I only considered this as an option to avoid "losing" the 9 inch or so thickness of the wall PLUS the gap between this wall and the studio itself .... an issue which does not appear to be justified as pointed out by fitZ.
At this EARLY stage, I am going to focus on a cement block structure (found various links last night relating to cement blocks requiring all holes to be filled ... which I will do) built INSIDE of the boundary wall and with a solid concrete floor and ceiling ..... then at least a 6 inch air gap followed by a floated sandwich structure for the inner walls, floor and ceiling using at least 3 layers of materials in the region of 16mm each.
I will be researching the validity of this type of structure later.
Thanks again.
Steven
 
You sound like you are on the right path.

The decoupling of the two boxes will be important, as will the flanking paths for sound. The great paradox will come here when you consider windows and ventillation. Windows aren't really all that hard if you just approach them all the same way you do the window betweent he control and live rooms. Ventillation is the real paradox, worthy of its own separate thread.
 
Hmmmmm ... my question to follow is probably bordering on (if not already DEEP into enemy territory!!) being quite sternly told to read through the archives, but I am merely asking for a confirmation with regards my original heading to this thread concerning the bricks, blocks or wood option.
It would appear that most people build some kind of studwork structure as the inner shell/leaf as opposed to brickwork.
Is there a "THEORETICAL" reason for this or is it simply down to the difficulty in floating a second leaf constructed out of brick/block?
Also, please remember that I am mainly interested in isolation at this point.
Given the choice, is there such a thing as a "better" option??
Thanks guys.
Steven
BTW ... I am researching through various archives and have already found many answers in other threads (thanks fitZ) ... my continuing question-line is simply due to the multitude of options banging about inside my head (perfect isolation inside there unless you post questions .... aaahh ... release!!).
 
It would appear that most people build some kind of studwork structure as the inner shell/leaf as opposed to brickwork.
Is there a "THEORETICAL" reason for this or is it simply down to the difficulty in floating a second leaf constructed out of brick/block?
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Hello again. Ok, here is my .02

Unless you are an engineer, or have time and budget to hire one, consider this. The last studio I investigated on the net, had rooms that were floated, with the floor being concrete slabs on embedded springs which in turn was supported by another slab/exterior shell foundation. The supporting slab and foundations were engineered for this weight. By the time all equipment, HVAC, electrical, fixtures, iso material, cabling, hardware, doors, windows and 15 people were factored in the calc's, the inner shell studio and control rooms weighed in at a whopping 30 TONS!!! It still floated with resonant frequency down to 18 hz. And that was with stick wall construction.
Also consider this. To support walls of bricks or blocks, there is NO WAY a 4" or 6" floating slab could support them, let alone a wood floating floor. Even a foundation to meet code here for masonry walls, the submittal has to have an engineers calc's on it to receive a permit. Personally, I would suggest you research this thouroghly, as I've never encountered this before. But I bet you will find that the consensus is to build stick wall construction. Even with rebar embedded into the edge of the floating slab, the weight of masonry walls would require a slab MUCH thicker than you could float economically.
I'm sure it could be done, but I also bet an engineer or permitting authority would tell you build the entire thing out of formed concrete, as anything mounted on springs.....well....moves. Even the springs would have to be engineered. Things that move would place stresses on the mortor joints, at least in my mind. :eek: Well, suffice to say, I'm not an engineer or expert at any of this stuff, but common sense tells me to build your exterior shell walls out of the block/brick, and the floating interior shell out of wood, even the floors. Unless you were building a world class studio in a commercial setting, with a world class budget, I think you need to research more. Actually, from what I've read of other DIY homestudio builders, they have had extreme success at isolation with normal stick and sheithing construction. But again, this is only my .02.

fitZ :)
 
TRue, there are jack spring systems that can float a concrete slab/inner box, but you are talking hugely expensive and heavy.
 
Cheers fitZ ... that about settles that!!
I was concerned about the overall weight as being the main issue, but with the zillion other things crashing around inside my head (including the physical complaints my body is making as a result of one or three too many stiff Whiskeys last night), I had not managed any sort of REAL figures .... thanks again!
Steven
 
result of one or three too many stiff Whiskeys last night),
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Hello again Steven, been there-done that :D Indulgence has its price :p

Well, I hope I didn't mislead you, but I don't think so. Like I said, I'm no expert but facts speak for themself. In this case....loud and clear :D

Have you drawn a plan yet? When you can, post it here so we can see what you are doing. I'm always interested in seeing projects that are from the ground up. There is a gentleman who posts here named Michael Jones. He has been building his studio from the ground up for the last 2 years give or take a few months. If you do a search, you can see many pictures or take a look here.

http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=151

Well, good luck and don't hesitate to ask questions. I'm no guru, but there are lots of people here with insight into the whys and hows.

fitZ :)
 
Hey there fitZ ... I am currently in the process of getting letters of consent signed by my neighbours as the regulations have apparently changed recently and I now have to get a letter from both "side" neighbours as well as THREE behind and THREE in front ... !!!!!!
They must have their reasons for such stipulations, but come on .... why the fuck should the THREE guys across the bloody road have any say as to me building in my BACKYARD??
Anyway ... da-law is da-law I guess.
Prior to typing the above lines of utter waffle, I only really wanted to say (damn backspace button is whacked again!!) that I will probably be BORING everyone with a complete series of pictures when all is green for go.
I will post pictures of the backyard as it stands as well as my plans as there may well be a few healthy suggestions from fellas such as yourself as to which end to put what etc (hey ... don't take that literally!!).
I must concede that I am involved in so many things (sound and lighting hire, cover band gigs, songwriting, eBay trawling, trying to earn money in whichever legal/illegal way possible to afford that matched pair of U67's, oh yeah ... and the Neve 8038, father of two, husband ...... AND now adding to all of that of course is wannabee studio designer/builder .... well not really, but you know what I mean!!!) that I often tend to overlook the obvious and most simple things.
Thanks for all advice so far and all the best.
Cheers
Steven
 
why the fuck should the THREE guys across the bloody road have any say as to me building in my BACKYARD??
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I WISH they would have asked the same thing where I used to live back in the 70's. I don't know how he got away with it, but a neighbor 2 houses from me, in a traditional residentiial one story housing tract, built a TWO STORY ADDITION to PART of his house. Frankly, when he finished, it looked like a kids treehouse. UGLIER THAN SIN!! :eek: :confused: :mad: :p Everyone in the neiborhood hated it. I know code now wouldn't allow it, but I guess it did then, cause there was NO WAY to build it without a permit. I was in a rental at the time, but I bet the homeowners were pissed because it probably lowered the value of their property at the time, but now it doesn't make any difference as ANYTHING in SACRAMENTO CAlifornia, is expensive. I sold my home there last year after living in it for 5 years. I bought it for $72k. I put it on the market and had an offer in 24 hrs. It was the cheapest house in Sacramento and still got an offer of $190k :eek: Now mind you, this is a little ole 1958...950 sq ft....one car garage tract house. My brother in law just saw that same house sell again this year for a whopping $240k!!! :eek: Thats a quarter of a million bucks. UNFUCKINGBELIEVEABLE.

I will probably be BORING everyone with a complete series of pictures when all is green for go.
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Not at all. Were all interested in fellow members projects. Kinda like a team effort hey?
eBay trawling, trying to earn money in whichever legal/illegal way possible to afford that matched pair of U67's, oh yeah ... and the Neve 8038, father of two,
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Ha! My wife and I sell on ebay. Just took 42 packages to the post office. People in line had "kill" in their eyes. :p And for the mic's and Neve....welcome to the gear lust club :D But actually, I'm kinda past that stage. I just want to use what I have and get on with building my own studio, which is actually just a big upstairs bedroom. But it's isolated, with a killer view out into the Oregon forest. In fact, the window in front of my console is a sliding glass door out to a deck that overlooks a 75' deep revine filled with GIANT fir and cedar trees. I love it. I've got a couple of midizer synched MSR-16s and a simple Studiomaster 20-8-2 with most of the stuff I need. Not the best, but for my needs it will work. There is no end to the gear lust syndrome.....although I still have dreams :rolleyes:
AND now adding to all of that of course is wannabee studio designer/builder
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Again....welcome to the HOMESTUDIO designers guild!! :D

I often tend to overlook the obvious and most simple things.
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Thats why you MUST take it slow, especially since you are building from the ground up. Let me give you a clue to something. The iso portion of this stuff is ALREADY solved. It's simply a matter of deciphering your needs, dimensions, available materials, permits, equipment etc and DETAILING your plan. I mean that literally. Do NOT leave any detail to the imagination or afterthought. Detail solution and finalization on paper are the means to frustration elimination. Believe me. I am a professional CAD "detailer", and know what I am talking about. Lots of people leave the details to the last, and then have to compromize things cause they didn't think it out. Like room to room thresholds, where different flooing materials make a height change. or HVAC ducting plans, or any number of "little" dimensions that make for bigger problems later. Well enough of my .02. Here is a sample of my "evolving" floor plan and a side elevation. As you see, the elevation is a "section" through the room and console. I designed and built my own console 9 years ago, and detailed it in cad. Now I simply insert the console into sections view using Autocad.


OOPS....the attatchment manager says I've already uploaded it here
https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=106205
Here is another one
https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=112790
If your interested, do a search on ME.
I've attached quite a few pics and CAD files here already, so it won't let me do it again. BTW, if you need any drawing(even Autocad submittal files)
just let me know. I'd be happy to do it for you.

fitZ :)
 

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Hey fitZ ... I hope one of those 42 packages contained my well packed LA2A ...... and did you remember to include the instructions for those "left over bits of rockwool from world class recording studio installation" that I won the bidding on??
I am going to post a question on John's forum in a couple of secs concerning something that has come to mind relating to my earlier issue of building directly onto the boundary wall etc.
Perhaps you (and any others willing to help) could hop over there and offer some advice (in Knightfly's Studio Construction section).
I found an old thread where it was suggested that a 3rd air gap and assosciated leaf does not have to be sealed to cause problems .... and having been out back with my trusty tape measure again, I am going to sacrifice PRECIOUS studio space if I move too far from the existing wall etc.
BTW ... I also found an old thread of yours which was basically a bit of a rant over the confusion one has whilst trying to apply solutions to many seperate problems only to find that another problem may have been created etc .... kind of why I am battling with myself at the moment (biggest problem right now is the guy directly behind me wants to know what I am building etc ... he has no objections, but has basically asked for a rough copy of any planned alterations .... so I am going to HAVE to kind of commit to a planned distance as such).
Cheers
Steven
 
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