Behringer B1/C3

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gavski82

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Hi there

This question may have been asked before, but I haven't spotted it as yet. SO here goes...
I want to buy a new cheap microphone for my little set up at home. Would like to record acoustic guitars possibly, but the main use of the mic would be for vocals.

I have seen these two Behringer mics for sale at decent prices, but they are so near in price I can't decide which would be best?!

I'm afraid I'm very much a beginner and so the tech specs go a little over me head! Would be great if someone could offer a little advice?

Many Thanks!
 
Most likely,the answer is- other. But here's my $.02 worth. First, many people will jump on both of them as junk just because they say "Behringer" on them, a company known for making ultra-cheap reverse engineered copies of other people's gear. I am a moderate on that score. I use some Behringer gear, and avoid other pieces like the plague. But this is a case where there are better pieces of gear at or near the same price. Given that you are new to this, and legitimately clueless, I'll contrast their design differences, and suggest some alternatives.

First, they are both studio condenser mics, which is not necessarily better than a dynamic mic,they just employ a different operating principle, like a gas engine and a diesel. They require power, called "phantom" power, to be delivered back up the mic cable. This requires an interface, mixer, or preamp that provides phantom power. This in usually, but not always, 48 volts, so there will be a switch that says "48v" or "phantom".

Next, in case you don't already know this, understand that real microphones, whether dynamics or condensers, are *not* compatible with the 1/8" "mic" jack on the sound card of a computer. So if that's your plan, understand that you will first need a preamplifier with analog to digital conversion, and digital output, usually by USB or firewire, or a specialized soundcard with the preamp and A-D conversion built in. They start at about $50, and can run up to thousands of dollars, depending on their quality and features.
Here are some entry-level examples:

dirt cheap:

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=42882&Category=Audio_Interfaces

better:

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=12031&Category=Audio_Interfaces

Note that if you are plugging the mic into a device, such as a mixer, that doesn't produce phantom power, but is meant to receive a mic (in other words, has a 3 pin XLR mic input), it is possible to get a device that just provides phantom power, such as :

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=8170&Category=Recording_Accessories

OK, that aside, these are condenser mics. What does that mean in the real world, when you get past the technobabble? They will tend to be more sensitive, and more detailed, than the handheld stage dynamic mics you are likely familiar with. Of course, there are also handheld stage condenser mics. In a studio, condenser mics are likely to pick up the fine details of sound, which can be a good thing on a delicate source, such as an acoustic guitar. This can also be a bad thing, as they tend to pick up reflections from a bad room, and ambient (background) noise. This is a very general statement, however. Some very good dynamics can have the same issues. Condensers are sometimes used on stage, especially for instuments, but you'd better have very sophisticated feedback control, and a sound guy who knows what he's doing.

Both dynamics and condensers are used for vocals, including big time studio recording. Mics are like shoes. They either fit, or they don't, and no one can tell you what vocal mics will work best for you until you actually use them. Both of the mics you have asked about are large diaphrgm mics, usually about 1". They are often used for vocals, and can work just fine on acoustic instruments as well. Many people favor small diaphragm mics (usually about 1/2") for acoustic instruments and as drum overheads, because the smaller, lighter diaphragm responds very quickly to "fast transients"- things that go from quiet to loud and back to quiet very quickly. Small diaphragms are rarely used for vocals (with some exceptions), as the lighter diaphragm is more susceptible to "popping", caused by aspirated consonants, like the letter "P", and can also be oversensitive, recording every mouth noise, and what you ate for lunch.

Mics also have different pickup, or "polar" patterns. The B-1 is a cardioid mic, and has a polar pattern shaped a little like a heart symbol. It picks up sound more from the front. and less from the sides and back. The C3 can be switched from cardioid to 2 other patterns, figure-of eight, and omnidirectional, or just omni. Figure 8 mics pick up mainly in 2 directions 180 degrees apart, and very little from the sides. This is good for 2 sources facing each other, such as 2 singers using the same mic, or when there is something you *don't* want to pickup, because they seriously reject input from the sides. This is common when you have one mic on a guitar and another for vocals, using both mics simultaneously, and you want to reduce "bleed", where the vocal mic is picking up the guitar, and vice versa. Figure 8 mics are also used with another cardioid mic in a combination called "mid-side" or MS stereo mic'ing, a more advanced application. Omni mics are useful for picking up a lot of stuff from a single point, such as a vocal ensemble or orchestra. Of course, they will also pick up the room, whatever it is like. Note that all directional mics produce "proximity effect". This means that when the source gets real close to them, the bass is boosted. Comedians, radio broadcasters, and singers use this as a tool, moving in and out of the proximity field, or flirting with it, to change the tone and emphasis of certain words or sounds. Modern beat-boxing is all about using proximity. Omnis are sometimes useful because they *don't* produce proximity effect. So for instance, an omni can be placed real close to an acoustic guitar without producing unpleasant excessive bass boost, known as "boom".

OK, those are the basics, and there is quite a lot more in the sticky at the top of this thread, about diaphragm size and polar patterns. It was written by Mr. Harvey Gerst, a regular on this board, who has forgotten more about mics than I am ever likely to know.

Now that I have all that out of the way, you are looking at 2 cheap Chinese mics. They are $100 or less. Some condenser mics that look almost the same cost literally thousands of dollars. Why? Why does a Ferrari cost more than a Kia? They will both get you to work. If somebody asked me about buying their first car, I wouldn't suggest a Ferrari, or a Kia. I'd probably recommend a Honda Civic, a Toyota Corolla, etc. These are cars from respected manufacturers with a proven track record of performance and reliability, and proven customer service. They also don't cost that much more than a Kia. So you have asked about some cheap Chinese mics, and I will recommend *other* cheap Chinese mics.

First, for a basic cardioid mic- (note that although multi-patterns are cool, cardioid is what you'll use 95% of the time). I would recommend this:

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=6458&Category=Microphones

or this:

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=10142&Category=Microphones

or this:

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=40688&Category=Microphones

For a multipattern mic, the only relatively inexpensive one I could recommend is this:

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=7732&Category=Microphones

The CAD is not Chinese, but actually Canadian, and you can draw whatever conclusion you want from that. Sorry if I have told you stuff you already know, but I've been reading the questions of beginners long enough to sometimes anticipate the *other* stuff they don't know. For a starter, I'd probably just get a V67 or a B1 and never look back. I personally prefer the V67 on most vocals, and the B1 on acoustic guitar, but either one will work fine. Best of luck-Richie
 
Never used the v67, B1, or perception, but +1 on the CAD if you want multi-pattern...a very nice, neutral sounding mic. BTW, if you search ebay they often come up very cheap...under $100. Also you can still find the Cad M177 on ebay which is the cardioid only version and cheaper. Using a condenser in an untreated room may pose problems however. Is your room treated?
 
If you want to buy a cheap first mic...there are plenty of those for sale in the gear for trade thread...you might score something alot better for the same price.
 
The CAD is not Chinese, but actually Canadian, and you can draw whatever conclusion you want from that.

Small correction: CAD is based in Ohio. It's a U.S. company, not a Canadian company, despite its name's uncanny resemblance to the standard abbreviation for Canadian Dollar.
 
IDK...the Adress for Avalex Mics is right here in Overland Park Kansas...but there is no factory there...just a distributorship...those Avalex mics are made in china.
 
I stand corrected, Dgatwood. I don't have a clue where I got the idea the CAD's were made in Canada. Oh well, they still aren't Chinese, and you can draw whatever conclusion you want from *that*.-Richie
 
The CAD mics were originally all built in the U.S., and they've started building a couple of their models in the U.S. again, but most of them are manufactured in China. The big difference is that they aren't Chinese designs. :)
 
The chinese dont design...they reverse engineer....and then cut corners...but they dont design much of anything.
 
Isn't the B1 a 1" diaphragm true condenser while the C3 is just a side adressed 16mm electret condenser? I understand that the B1 just has a single diaphram / single polar pattern (cardoid) whereas the C3 has two diaphragms (all be they electret not true condenser) so can be switched from cardoid to figure 8 to omni pattern?

As to which one of those two to buy? I suspect the B1 would sound a lot better than the C3 but the C3 would have more application use because of it's three available patterns. If it were me and it were only a choice of those two - then the B1 over the C3.

I have a B2-Pro (twin diaphragm multi pattern version of the B1) floating round somewhere that I don't mind on many things recording, and a C1 (single pattern version of the C3) that is a noisy piece of pooh that only gets occasional use as an announcing mike on my little home radio station. I couldn't ever see that being used anywhere in my various recording chains.

Then again it only cost fifty bucks several years ago.

G
 
The chinese dont design...they reverse engineer....and then cut corners...but they dont design much of anything.

Oh, no, they design. They reverse engineer each piece and then design how they go together. For example, they design a mic that combines the capsule from a U87 with the circuitry of a C-414 or whatever. It always sounds horrible, of course, because the circuitry doesn't suit the capsule at all....
 
I own a Behringer B1 and do not recommend it. Go with the suggestions above.
 
Well, thanks to you all for enlightening me. It gets even better. While CAD's website proudly proclaims "Engineered and Built in USA", it turns out that that refers only to the "USA Series", which currently contains only one mic, E100s. Of course, there is another, apparently identical, Equitek mic, the E100, also advertised as E100 2, which is not made in USA. A click on this on a favorite supplier required me to open an .ASP file (very accurate name), which requires me to download software, which I refuse to do. In short, as near as I can tell, any CAD mic made in USA is actually vaporware, or a specialty mic in limited production available only from the manufacturer, if at all. But of course, finding that out is like pulling teeth from a werewolf with an alligator clip. My bad for passing on second hand (wrong) information. At least we know that we are back to talking about cheap Chinese microphones.

Based on Alan Hyatt's stated experiences with 797 Audio, the Chinese can build a good microphone, but the designing and ordering company has to stay on their case, making it clear that they will not accept a product that doesn't meet the design parameters, including build tolerances and specified components. That figures- what's a little melamine in the cat food, anyway?

Setting aside the issue that a portion of those profits go to pay for nuclear tipped missiles pointed at *me*, the last company on Earth I would trust to ride shotgun on Chinese build quality is Behringer. None of it changes my recommendations. Marshall Electronics, Studio Projects/PMI, AKG, and CAD are all companies that have a proven track record for selling Chinese made mics that perform well at their price point, and for providing customer service. Welcome to the 21st century, where are enemies are also our business partners.-Richie
 
Well, thanks to you all for enlightening me. It gets even better. While CAD's website proudly proclaims "Engineered and Built in USA", it turns out that that refers only to the "USA Series", which currently contains only one mic, E100s. Of course, there is another, apparently identical, Equitek mic, the E100, also advertised as E100 2, which is not made in USA. A click on this on a favorite supplier required me to open an .ASP file (very accurate name), which requires me to download software, which I refuse to do. In short, as near as I can tell, any CAD mic made in USA is actually vaporware, or a specialty mic in limited production available only from the manufacturer, if at all. But of course, finding that out is like pulling teeth from a werewolf with an alligator clip. My bad for passing on second hand (wrong) information. At least we know that we are back to talking about cheap Chinese microphones.

What makes the Chinese mics suck are the capsules. The CAD mic capsules are still designed by CAD and manufactured to presumably the same specs as they were back when they were made in the U.S. They don't sound at all like the true Chinese mics, or at least the ones I've used don't. I can't speak for their SDCs.
 
wow thank you very much for the advice chaps, learned lots of new things from this board!
One thing i should really have mentioned is that I'm in Liverpool, England (is this a US only site? Forgive me for barging in!). And so I shall have to check the availability of the suggestions offered, but I will definitely do so!
I did very nearly buy the Behringer B1 the other day, good job I didn't!
 
No, this is by no means a U.S. only site, there are a number of Brits on the board, a fair number of Australians, some Canadians, and a smattering of continental Europe, and an occasional South American and Asian. But- often we don't know as much about the availability and pricing of gear in Europe. In general, Brits seem to get the best deals on items made in the British commonwealth. For budget mics, this often means Rode, in Australia. I'm sure some of the other Brits will jump in and give you Anglo-specific suggestions. Rode builds some very budget-friendly mics, but nothing in the real cheap range, so you may be looking at the AKG Perception series, which are made in China but distributed out of Austria. The EU has better deals with England than the USA, so that may work out for you. Calling all Englishmen and Northern Irish! Give this bloke some advice!-Richie
 
I shall have a look at Rode. I have tried the usual outlets - ebay etc, but there isn't much in the way of these microphones at the moment.
So please, listen to Mr. Monroe, advise me!!!
 
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