Bass EQ Issues...Help please!

  • Thread starter Thread starter Robertt8
  • Start date Start date
Robertt8

Robertt8

Well-known member
Okay, Some of you may have heard some of my stuff before, but my tunes seem to have an incredibly warm bass pumping through on some systems. On some speakers, my Bass sounds too weak, and on some it's overpowering. For example, it usually sounds weak on most stereo's I've heard it on, but I was in my folks new Toyota Camry this week, popped in my CD, and was floored by how strong it was. It was almost too much. While leaving the stereo at the same settings, the radio sounded just fine. Can someone help me here? I'm assuming this is an EQ thing, but I don't know where to begin. Can someone take a listen and offer some advice?

Site: http://bob.birdsallinteractive.com/
Songs: Try song 1, 3, 4...basically anything but 2 (no bass)

Thanks!
Tait
 
I listened to roll with the punches...

could use a low cut on the bass....a little muddy....maybe a mid boost too...then compress and adjust volume and re-mix....

cool tune....

Joe
 
Hey Tait -

lol...I SOOOOoooo feel your pain.

This helped me.

http://www.recordingproject.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=1033

For what it's worth, the low mids and lows sound kinda' outta' whack on 3...you're pretty close on 4, I think...although it really could use some multi-band compression too.

The clinic is cool for a lot of things, but for the most part, getting a good balance on the low end is NOT one of its shining qualities, lol. It's all about running it out to the car and checking the woof factor at high volumes.

BTW - you've still got some REALLY low stuff in your mixes, which would explain why it might sound thin on smaller systems...there's a lot of headroom being taken up by subsonic stuff that's not available for the actual bass. But when you listen to this on a full system or anything with a sub (I've got a sub turned on now), it's DEFINITELY got plenty of low end.

Seems to be a bigger problem for those of us that record acoustic stuff with a lot of vocals. Read the thread, it saved 3 mixes for me this week. (pay special attention to the post by PIPELINEAUDIO).
 
Thanks guys!

Chrisharris, I'll check out that link thanks. Just out of curiosity, how can you tell that there's a bunch of subsonic stuff in the mix? I mean can you actually hear it, or is it something that's appearing on a meter? Also, how would I get rid of that? Is that just bottom shelving everything? And if so, at what frequency do I shelve the bass? Like anything below 80?

Thanks!
Tait
 
Robertt8 said:


Chrisharris, I'll check out that link thanks. Just out of curiosity, how can you tell that there's a bunch of subsonic stuff in the mix? I mean can you actually hear it, or is it something that's appearing on a meter?
Click to expand...

Okay, here, I'll be a smartass, lol...it's SUBSONIC, so I don't "hear" it... (don't hit me man), lol...but I did "feel" it hitting me like a hip hop mix - I didn't feel it until I said screw the nearfields, and I burnt a disc and played it on my stereo. The reason I did that is b/c of your comment that the bass was reacting really differently on different systems...For me, that's a tell tale sign that the mix is pretty hot WAAAAY low.

But then I saw you post, and I didn't wanna' look dumber than I usually do, so I ran it thru an analyzer against a commercial mix that I know is really good on many different systems.

The pic (if you can make it out) shows that you are about 20db hotter at 16Hz than the commercial mix...and really, everything from 60Hz down, your mix is quite a bit hotter.

Read that link...it describes a good way to use high pass (low cut) filters that will prevent this from ever being a problem in the first place...For that part of it, I'll just say that it's very helpful to run a low cut over each track until you HEAR it change the sound of the individual track, then back off a little and run the filter. I don't think it's a good idea to just pick a frequency and hack everything below it...I mean, a good mix NEEDS SOME 50Hz in the kick, right? But by doing the things suggested in that thread, they won't all build up on top of each other and rob your mix of the headroom it needs.
 

Attachments

  • rob\'s-mix.webp
    rob\'s-mix.webp
    20.4 KB · Views: 149
BTW - those aren't peaks in the pic...they're averages. So, ON AVERAGE, you're 20db hotter in the low shat than a mix that I know is great...I don't know where your peaks were, but I suspect they were pretty high to get those averages.

Also, the thread I linked is mostly about "low mids," but there's stuff in there that applies directly to your problem.

Be Well,
Chris
 
Chris,

Tell me about that analyzer. What a great tool. I'm using a tape based digital system and would love to pick up a software tool that does lays out the frequencies like you posted. Suggestions would be great.

Thanks,
Ron
 
Hey, thanks a ton Chris!

I'm going to get a chance to check out that entire link you posted today.

By the way, which song did you run through to get that graph?

I'll get this stuff figured out one of these days. By the way, I know we've talked about these spectral analyzers before, but I was never able to track down a mac version. Any idea where I might be able to snag one?

Thanks!
Tait
 
Hey guys...that screenshot is from the PAZ Analyzer, which came with my Waves bundle.

http://www.axemusic.com/products/recording_software/plugins/waves_paz.htm

I like it because it allows you to analyze a mix and SAVE IT to compare to other mixes. Hearing is great, but hearing AND SEEING is even better, eh? I also like it because if you hit "save data," it'll give you a db reading, frequency by frequency of where your mix is peaking, which is really helpful if you need to start using multiband compression on an area.

BTW - that analyzer is compatible with Macs, Rob... I honestly don't know if you can get JUST the analzyer, but just google "free spectrum analyzer" and you should be able to come up with some hits.

[edit] - That was from #3 on your page.
 
Okay, I've found some sound analyzers, but they all do this live sound analysis and look more like toys or visual diarrhea than something useful. I'm sure it's just a setting on the one you've got, but how are you getting that so it's showing you the entire song at one time?
 
Robertt8 said:
Okay, I've found some sound analyzers, but they all do this live sound analysis and look more like toys or visual diarrhea than something useful. I'm sure it's just a setting on the one you've got, but how are you getting that so it's showing you the entire song at one time?
Click to expand...
It's got 2 output settings..."PEAK" and "RMS"...root, mean...something, something...I dunno'... As far as getting the whole song, that's a little misleading...I got those by playing the entire song through on RMS and looking at what was left standing at the end.

This is a shitty explaination, b/c I don't fully understand HOW it works...I just know how to use it to compare mixes. I have probably 25 presets saved from mixes that I've heard on my stereo, in the car, on boomboxes, on friends' cars, through PA's, lol...mixes that I KNOW are good for what I do. If I'm doing an acoustic piece with a female vocal, Alison Krauss's "Lucky One" is the preset I'm pulling up. If I'm doing something with (*ahem* ) MBUSTER - then I'm pulling up an overcompressed, white hot CD cut from 3 Doors Down, b/c I KNOW those mixes translate well. For yours, I actually A/B'd it with a country song that I know is fairly bass heavy, but don't laugh...the genre doesn't matter..it's about the mix.

I'll snoop around and see if I can find anything that does the job.
 
just out of curiosity, how does sound, that you can't hear (appears to be silence), take up space? and where does it take up space? If I get rid of it, I should be able to make the track louder?

I'm still not perfectly understanding this concept. Is there any analogies here that can be used?
 
Robertt8 said:
just out of curiosity, how does sound, that you can't hear (appears to be silence), take up space? and where does it take up space? If I get rid of it, I should be able to make the track louder?
Click to expand...
It won't make the track louder on a db meter (0db = 100%), but you can make the mix a HELLUVA louder in APPARENT volume, which is all we really care about. There's an audio clip example below. If a mix has a lot of subsonics in it, it'll seem like you can't turn it up very loud before your speakers start crapping out, because, well...the speakers in most boom boxes and attached to computers will just start FARTING. If a mix has a lot of subsonics, then there is less room for the midrange, which is what we all hear.

What Are They? - If you've ever stood in front of a PA at a concert, and literally seen your pants move from the air coming out of the sub cabinets whenever the drummer hits the kick, or if you've ever FELT a car with a kickerbox go by (when your windows rattle), that *thump* *thump* is what I'm talking about. Humans are (some say) capable of hearing as low as 20Hz...(I can't). But they definitely color the sound of just about any instrument. An acoustic guitar resonates at subsonic frequencies...you usually can't feel them unless you amplify the crap out of the acoustic. Subsonics are in all good mixes. It's just a matter of getting the right balance between what you HEAR and what you FEEL. I'll go out on a limb here and say that there's absolutely nothing wrong with cutting all the lows on an acoustic guitar below 80Hz ever. Beyond that, it just depends on the mix.

Okay, a freaking example already
2 clips of the exact same portion of "So Cold" - Both are the same volume, but one is just your mix from 50Hz down (I left some sonics in there), and the other is your mix with everything below 40Hz rolled off. **WARNING**BE CAREFUL IF YOU LISTEN TO THIS, THAT FIRST CLIP WILL DEFINITELY BLOW SPEAKERS.

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=1698&alid=601

Again, they're both the same volume, but one has a lot more APPARENT volume. If you listen on really good speakers or subs, or good headphones, you'll feel the bone rattling bass that I think you probably don't want or need in your mixes in that first cut.

Dumb commentary portion - A lot of people believe that as long as you track well, your mix will be good. Well fuck, maybe that works if you're doing all synthesizer/keyboard stuff, but if you're actually mic'ing guitars and vocals and drums, and you're not using low cut filters on them during tracking, then you'd BETTER roll some of that shit off, (subtractive EQ) b/c unlike analog, digital recording is pretty unforgiving, and if you record subsonics on a track, they'll freaking be there, lol...and when you have 2 or 3 guitars, and 2 or 3 vocals with no filters on them, EVEN WITH NO BASS GUITAR, you can build up in the subsonics pretty quickly.

**Disclaimer** I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about 98% of the time, so take this with a grain of whatever.
 
chrisharris said:
It won't make the track louder on a db meter (0db = 100%), but you can make the mix a HELLUVA louder in APPARENT volume, which is all we really care about. There's an audio clip example below. If a mix has a lot of subsonics in it, it'll seem like you can't turn it up very loud before your speakers start crapping out, because, well...the speakers in most boom boxes and attached to computers will just start FARTING. If a mix has a lot of subsonics, then there is less room for the midrange, which is what we all hear.

What Are They? - If you've ever stood in front of a PA at a concert, and literally seen your pants move from the air coming out of the sub cabinets whenever the drummer hits the kick, or if you've ever FELT a car with a kickerbox go by (when your windows rattle), that *thump* *thump* is what I'm talking about. Humans are (some say) capable of hearing as low as 20Hz...(I can't). But they definitely color the sound of just about any instrument. An acoustic guitar resonates at subsonic frequencies...you usually can't feel them unless you amplify the crap out of the acoustic. Subsonics are in all good mixes. It's just a matter of getting the right balance between what you HEAR and what you FEEL. I'll go out on a limb here and say that there's absolutely nothing wrong with cutting all the lows on an acoustic guitar below 80Hz ever. Beyond that, it just depends on the mix.

Okay, a freaking example already
2 clips of the exact same portion of "So Cold" - Both are the same volume, but one is just your mix from 50Hz down (I left some sonics in there), and the other is your mix with everything below 40Hz rolled off. **WARNING**BE CAREFUL IF YOU LISTEN TO THIS, THAT FIRST CLIP WILL DEFINITELY BLOW SPEAKERS.

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=1698&alid=601

Again, they're both the same volume, but one has a lot more APPARENT volume. If you listen on really good speakers or subs, or good headphones, you'll feel the bone rattling bass that I think you probably don't want or need in your mixes in that first cut.

Dumb commentary portion - A lot of people believe that as long as you track well, your mix will be good. Well fuck, maybe that works if you're doing all synthesizer/keyboard stuff, but if you're actually mic'ing guitars and vocals and drums, and you're not using low cut filters on them during tracking, then you'd BETTER roll some of that shit off, (subtractive EQ) b/c unlike analog, digital recording is pretty unforgiving, and if you record subsonics on a track, they'll freaking be there, lol...and when you have 2 or 3 guitars, and 2 or 3 vocals with no filters on them, EVEN WITH NO BASS GUITAR, you can build up in the subsonics pretty quickly.

**Disclaimer** I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about 98% of the time, so take this with a grain of whatever.
Click to expand...

but damn, this sounds good.. :D
 
Yo! ChrisHarris! You are awesome! This finally makes sense. I guess I need to be beat over the head with the answer to get it, but that set of examples you had made perfect sense! I've never seen it laid out like that before! THANKS!
 
That PAZ thing looks really REALLY handy! I mostly use the analyzer on my RME HDSP cards, or an O-scope, but neither can save settings for later use like the PAZ can. I have the Waves Bundle, I need to see if I actually have that plug.

"just out of curiosity, how does sound, that you can't hear (appears to be silence), take up space? and where does it take up space? If I get rid of it, I should be able to make the track louder? "

as a further tangent ( Chris summed it up pretty well), take a listen to a modern commercial superloud mashed to hell CD

You will notice almost no bass, at least nothing real, though you will *percieve* a pretty thick bottom. You will also notice a LOT more mono than you would have pre-volume wars.

If you are joined in the "Race to White Noise", be aware, stereo eats level. Bass, you can look at the Fletcher-Munson curve, takes a LOT of level to be heard, lots and lots of power. However, there are tricks to up the *percieved* level of bass.

Not that I advocate squished ass records, but this is why youll never get a really good sounding mix as loud as a bassless, treble mashed, mono NickleCreed mix.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top