bal/unbal connection explanations needed

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schnoops

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I need to record my V-amp2 through the card, and the manual says that its stereo output supports both balanced and unbalanced wiring.

so my questions are:

-what is the standard line out level of a balanced output? +4dBv or -10dBv? or can it be both?

-what is the standard level of an unbalanced output?+4dBv or -10dBv? or can it be both?

-what is the standard line in level on home stereo equipment?

-what is the standard line in level on nearfields?

-If I want to plug a dynamic microphone into the card, what type of line in do I need?

-is it true that balanced connections allow for and increased by 16dB signal to go through, thus giving better signal to noise ratio for recording?

-are balanced connections a real need for "pro-sound" recordings? cause I read that balanced wiring and grounding are difficult issues to cope with, because of ground loops, HF pollution, crosstalk, electrostatic coupling, magnetic coupling via the balanced lines.... specially when doing home studio with crappy equipment and poor electrical connections.

-more generally, wich card among those I mentioned before would you go for, considering audio quality, latency and CPU usage, and wiring options?

Any help welcome, of course, thanks a lot!
 
sorry I forgot to type the introduction of my post:::
*************************************************
while prospecting for a new audio card, I noticed that some provide balanced inputs @ +4dBu while other provide unbalanced inputs @ -10dBv, and some of them allow for switching between the two.

the cards I picked up are:
-echo mia (bal@+4dB only)
-delta audiophile(unbal only)
-waveterminal 2496(both bal and unbal and +4dB and -10dB switchable)
-waveterminal 192X ( bal@+4dB ins and outs only)
-waveterminal 192L ( unbal@-10dB, mic input+preamp ins, and -10dB outs)

-delta 44(both bal and unbal and +4dB and -10dB, switchable ins and outs)
*************************************************
and the rest is just above.
 
As a roule of thumb...it will be the same dynamic headroom in a -10 system as you get from a +4 system, if they are properly set up.
unbal -10 is simpelr (cheaper) to build as it require less components, but it doesn't mean it gives you lower quality.
You need one IC to make a -10 output but at least 2 to make a +4 output, or a transformer.
Problem nurmally occurs when you have to mix -10 and +4 signals, as cranking up gain several times might degrade your dynamic range.
You can get hum-problems in either bal/obal... but bal might need some more "thinking and experience" sometimes for design.
Bal is less sensetive to many of the problems you mentioned, but I'm shure many of the users on this bbs has managed to build good -10 systems.
"Sound quality" is the same in -10 and +4.
And "why is it +4?", thats a long story.....

I would personally go for as much +4 as possible, why? As the system develops most likley I would start looking into more hi-end equipment.......and there +4/bal is more common.



rgds
 
Balanced/unbalanced configurations have to do with type of signal.... -10 dbV and +4 dbu have to do with signal strength (gain structure)...

They are 2 separate things.

-what is the standard line out level of a balanced output? +4dBv or -10dBv? or can it be both?

-what is the standard level of an unbalanced output?+4dBv or -10dBv? or can it be both?
It can be both...


-what is the standard line in level on home stereo equipment?
Consumer line-level, or -10dbV (roughly)...


-what is the standard line in level on nearfields?
Many nearfields have both -- all will have +4...


-If I want to plug a dynamic microphone into the card, what type of line in do I need?
Depends on the sound card... you'd plug the mic to a mic pre, then connect the mic pre to the soundcard's line input.... whether that line-in is -10 or +4 depends on the soundcard...


-is it true that balanced connections allow for and increased by 16dB signal to go through, thus giving better signal to noise ratio for recording?
Not really -- given a properly-matched gain structure, there's no difference in headroom... the advantage of the higher gain structure is that the noise floor is significantly farther away from the signal level at +4 than it is at -10.

And given the same reference point, a +4 signal is 12.xx dB higher than a -10 signal.


-are balanced connections a real need for "pro-sound" recordings?
Unbalanced signals can be more prone to induced noise than balanced lines, but a poor-sounding signal thru a balanced line will still be a poor-sounding signal!


-more generally, wich card among those I mentioned before would you go for, considering audio quality, latency and CPU usage, and wiring options?
That's a pretty broad question and the answer, without more detail, is "it depends..."
 
A few further notes:

-what is the standard line out level of a balanced output? +4dBv or -10dBv? or can it be both?


As he said, it can be both. Whether one is standard sort of depends on what you mean by "standard." Balanced +4 dBu is certainly more common than balanced -10 dBV.

(Note the letters after "dB" -- they're different from yours, and that matters. dBV is voltage relative to 1 volt and dBu is voltage relative to .775 volts. Sometimes dBv is used to mean the same thing as dBu, but that's sufficiently confusing that it seems to have fallen into disfavor).

-what is the standard level of an unbalanced output?+4dBv or -10dBv? or can it be both?


Ditto. Unbalanced -10 dBV is more common and might be considered standard, if you have a somewhat loose definition of what "standard" means.

-what is the standard line in level on home stereo equipment?

Consumer line-level, or -10dbV (roughly)...

Yeah, that is a standard.

-what is the standard line in level on nearfields?

Many nearfields have both -- all will have +4...


Of course a non-powered (passive) nearfield would want something considerably higher than either +4 or -10 (duh).

Passive nearfields ordinarily (maybe even always) have a volume/gain control. I would expect that nearly all of them would not be overloaded by a +4 dBu input in ordinary use, and that the range of gain available would be enough for ordinary use with either level of input. Theoretically, if it's a perfect linear amplifier, when turned up "all the way," you should get approximately 12 dB less SPL if your input is at -10 dBV. But: (i) the amplifier may start distorting unacceptably at about the same volume level either way and (ii) all of this is probably above the level you'd want for ordinary use.

-If I want to plug a dynamic microphone into the card, what type of line in do I need?

Depends on the sound card... you'd plug the mic to a mic pre, then connect the mic pre to the soundcard's line input.... whether that line-in is -10 or +4 depends on the soundcard...


Yes. Also, if the card has a mic preamp in it, you could plug in the mic, which is well below either -10 or +4.

-is it true that balanced connections allow for and increased by 16dB signal to go through, thus giving better signal to noise ratio for recording?

Not really -- given a properly-matched gain structure, there's no difference in headroom... the advantage of the higher gain structure is that the noise floor is significantly farther away from the signal level at +4 than it is at -10.

And given the same reference point, a +4 signal is 12.xx dB higher than a -10 signal.


11.786 dB, to be more precise. That's the difference between the two signal levels. Not 14, and not 16, in any event. Because +4 is referenced to .775 volts, which is 2.214 dB lower than 1 volt.

Signal level and balancing are different issues, and this is a place where people often get them confused.

Note that if you take a true differential balanced input and plug it into an unbalanced input (i.e. ground one of the legs, or leave it disconnected), you throw away 1/2 of the signal's voltage: rather than receiving a signal equal to the difference between +[signal voltage] and -[signal voltage], the box that's getting the signal receives a signal equal to the difference between +[signal voltage] and ground. Cutting voltage in half is about a 6 dB reduction (6.0206, if you want to be a bit more precise).

Whether any of this has anything to do with signal to noise ratio depends on where the noise we're talking about is coming from.

If we're talking about noise in the signal coming out of the box producing the signal (e.g. noise in the background, noise from the mic, noise from the mic preamp, noise from an EQ unit ...), the level of the line and whether it's balanced will have approximately no effect on the ratio between the signal and this noise.

If we're talking about noise that's induced into the signal while it's running through the cable, the ratio of the signal to this sort of noise would be improved both by having a higher signal level and by using a balanced line (for different reasons). However, in typical use (well-placed lines under 10 feet (say), and a recording environment that's not underneath a radio transmission tower or something), the noise induced into a line will probably be very slight -- way less than the noise that comes from other places in a typical "home studio" set up.

A higher level in a line will make the ratio of the signal to induced-in-the-cable noise higher, because the signal will be higher and the noise will be the same. A balanced line (if connected to a balanced input with a differential amplifier) will make the ratio of the signal to induced-in-the-cable noise higher, because of "common mode rejection:" noise induced into both legs will cancel out, at least to some degree.

-are balanced connections a real need for "pro-sound" recordings?


No.

-more generally, wich card among those I mentioned before would you go for, considering audio quality, latency and CPU usage, and wiring options?


I have no idea.
 
Well thank you for all your explanations. This would be a great tutorial on audio connections to start with before building any Home daw, in my opinion!

I read another funny stuf on balanced connections:
if you leave the ground wire unproperly grounded on one end, the whole cable behaves just as a huge RF antenna! trashing any signal that goes through.


I already gathered some of the informations you gave me here around the WWW, but the big picture summarized this ways helps a lot more.

Well I think I'll go for the Waveterminal 2496, as it supports all possible combinations of bal/unbal -10/+4 inputs, and is reknown to be the "industry standard" as some people say...

but I still could't figure out wether the V-amp had -10dBV or +4dBu balanced outs... the last step before I can start actually doing something!
I guess the only way to get rid of this pollution at the guitar level would be to set up a faraday cage using copper foils around the guitar player, say a 2m*2m cardboard cube... I became psycho about interferences, ground loops.... I spent two weeks rewiring and shielding my guitar, using Hi-end pots and caps, copper foil, star grounding... I WANT THE PERFECT SOUND!

thank you guys! great help!
 
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