aw, c'mon, slackmaster's ears aren't all *that* golden...

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dobro

dobro

Well-known member
I'm curious about something. I put a song up here a few days ago, and people tended to like it, but only two people, Pedullist and Slackmaster (who has a painfully accurate sense of ptich) commented on the vocal being out of tune in places. Didn't anybody else notice it?

What I do is put together a first mix and post it here, and then check comments that the song might benefit from, and then *really* get into the mix. When I REALLY got into Beedlybum (gee, that sounds a bit rude...) it became really obvious that I'm gonna have to redo the vocal.

Anyway, if you posted in that Beedlybum thread, I'd really appreciate some feedback on this, cuz I'm trying to understand how much stuff gets by people here. Didn't you notice the bits that were out of tune, or were you trying not to hurt my feelings? :D
 
I am not very good at giving bad reviews but I gave it another listen just now. Some of the vocal parts may be questionable but I don't know if they are really out of tune or that is just your style. I don't mean that in a bad way but some of the notes that are held out longer tend to fluctuate. At about :37 "You can see the creeper creeping" sounds a little shaky and maybe again at :50 "for the outside". Again, I think it is just your style and voice not necessarily out of tune..
 
I did notice it (my sense of pitch is pretty sickeningly accurate too as a fretless bassplayer and classically trained double bass player). But I guess I didn't want to hurt your feelings. I hardly know you, remember. Above that: I thought this board was about MIXES. I never critique someone for the notes or the sounds he chooses. I only comment on the quality of the song and the mix or the way it sounds.

Hey, perhaps we should add a note in each post on what we would like to get critiqued (I, for instance, hate it when people nag about 'getting real drums', because that's impossible for me to record)

Anyway, I can comment on intonation issues if you want, just let me know.

:D
 
O wait, I actually DID comment on it LOL I totally forgot, and misread your post. I'm such an idiot.

And I guess I did like to hurt your feelings :D

So my comment only applies to some of the other music I've heard.
 
I think the main thing here in the clinic is mix comments, but I don't want to restrict it to that. If somebody thinks there's something interesting worth saying about the performance or the song itself, then it's probably worth hearing. You know, B Sabbath's mixes are often not worth my commenting on, because they're clean and tight and good. Same with Crawdad's stuff. It's more a matter of the song itself then, and just listening to it and enjoying it, and commenting about what struck me about it.
 
A lot of your vocals have been a tad bit flat, but usually it works fine. I actually like flat vocals if the song style compliments it.

It's not easy to hear yourself off key becuause in your mind you're projecting what you want to hear onto the mix. I think that's one of the greater challenges of recording yourself.

When you record vocals, do you use the standard "one ear" technique? I've found that it's critical to have one ear listening to the room to sing in key.

And yeah this forum is about "mixing", but you can't have a mix without a performance. Lots of people are afraid to make comments about things like tuning...I don't know why.

Slackmaster 2000
 
Call me a fool, but flat notes don't *always* bother me. Half of music to me is character. And I don't believe in "perfect" characters. If it bothered me I would have told you or anyone.
 
:)
I referenced acknowledgement of it in the presentation, in a comment, however I shot for support and appreciation thru the subliminal because I like the presentation you did. I also like the vocal presentations of Leon Russell, Elmore James, Chitlin Head, John Lee Hooker, Joe cocker, Bob Dylan, and of course Neil Young. the list goes on and on over the medium into the likes of Steve Perry and Gino Vannelli. Its all about the presentation... and the imagery. There are tons of guitar songs in here. Counting how many times I hear that damned g string or b out of tune in chords would be ridiculous, and I figure if it was posted and critiqued the poster will be giving it a serious listen soon and autocorrect since music is about pitch, timbre, and rythym. If a correction is not evident in the next listen, then addressing it seems proper to me, but only if it is in conflict with the piece. Sometimes its just part of the scene on the canvas. Yo to what Sluice said. IMHO
Ken
 
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Now that you mention it, and now that I listen very carefully - ok, you're out of tune in spots. It doesn't detract from the song in the least in my opinion. I don't think retracking it and getting it in tune would improve the song. I don't hear any long notes that are the same number of cents flat for the duration either, just wavering and sliding which is fine in this case.
 
Yeah..I suppose you could be more on pitch. But for me, that is not the issue with your stuff. Bob Dylan really comes to mind in this conversation. I think singing with emotion and in a pleasing way is much more of interest than being perfect. right? I think your stuff is in need more of production and execution of the song. Those (to me) are your weak points. You've [almost!!] conquered the hiss, ...but seriously, the performing is not the issue. It seems to me to be more the song and the way you present it that is most important for you at this point in your endeavors. Interesting production techniques, unique mixes, great songs...all that groovy stuff. That is what I would tell you to work on if you are looking for improvement. (but you've got a great start, I'll say that)
 
i have WAY less than perfect pitch ears so they are very forgiving...if they were off, it wasnt enuff to distract from the song.....i hope you dont think we would be less than honest to spare your feelings....because the first turd you post, im gonna flame you bad:D

hasnt happened yet....your stuff just keeps getting better and more distinctive.....

im wondering what kind of influences bring you to such a style?....
 
Your vocals are always sung "out of the box" IMHO so I really dont notice pitch problems.If there are pitch problems I just consider them part of your vocal "style".:eek: You have a unique voice and an original(unorthodox?:eek:) way of phrasing words.

It's easy to spot pitch problems in the usual genres of music but you've got a whole 'nother genre going on with your stuff.:D
 
scottboyher: Some of the vocal parts may be questionable but I don't know if they are really out of tune or that is just your style.
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Kramer: If there are pitch problems I just consider them part of your vocal "style".
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Those quotes sum up my feelings. I just gave another critical listen to the vocals, and they are indeed flat in spots. But they don't stay that way long. Perfect pitch is bullshit... the tempered scale is not sacred nor the be all end all. Sometimes those between notes and sluring the notes is very effective for a feel.

I'm not shy about pointing out tuning or intonation issues when I think they detract. Sometimes I like out of tune guitars for effect, but there's a difference between that and just having tuning problems. This, to me, is an effect.
 
Jesus, what a revelation. This thread rings true. I've reached the point in my life where I realize when somebody says something about me it's more about them than about me, but in this thread I think what people are saying is true both about what they feel *and* about the song.

Okay, I've taken the measure of this place. Thank you all very much for responding. It's been useful. I needed to check.
 
Pedullist said:
... Hey, perhaps we should add a note in each post on what we would like to get critiqued (I, for instance, hate it when people nag about 'getting real drums', because that's impossible for me to record) ...
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This is a good idea when you post something, IMO. Now, as a drum snob who tends to make the "real drums" comment I wanna say a quick little something here, in defense.

Sometimes I come across a mix that sounds really good to me overall, but the drum samples and/or programming just don't work for me. To me, no amount of tweaking the mix is going to improve the sound in these cases. The drum issue is the biggest one and I'd be remiss if I didn't say something.

Sure, sometimes it's a taste issue, but that's what you're gonna get to a degree. I try to remain as objective as I can about the mix and the recording, but my tastes are going to interfere. Plus, there's no harm in ignoring my advice if one doesn't agree or simply has no choice in the matter. I've gotten comments regarding the acquisition of better mics, and while true, there's not much I can do about that until some money starts rolling in :).

</derailment TYPE=rant>
 
Yeah, you're right Pglewis. Luckily we're not a band. We can disagree and still be friends/stick together on this board... :)

We're all here to learn. If you say a drumfill I programmed doesn't sound 'natural' because I programmed a virtual 6 legged & 3 armed drummer I sincerely would like to know that. If I programmed the part intentionally 'fake' I'll just ignore the comment.

Sometimes it's good fun to program it just the way you like, imo it's still questionable whether you should program 'like a real drummer' as a creative homerecorder...you'll never achieve your goal anyway so you might as well program unnatural patterns. Hell, even modern techniques like double bass drum parts or jungle beats would have sounded mighty unnatural in the 60s! So what the heck, you're 'drumming' on a keyboard and a 'puter anyway, why not make a fill that could only be played by a drummer with 6 legs and 3 arms?

Bill Bruford (and many other drummers) said you can learn a lot from jungle/drum&bass music. Nowadays all these drummers seem to have added this style to their vocabulary. Jungle didn't sound natural in the beginning, but right now it does. Drummers managed (after long hours of practice) to play it, so now it's a 'natural' sounding style.

I digress :) Drunk...

What I'm trying to say is: why bother about making something sound 'natural', a questionable definition, when you can use all creative forces to make and create something NEW?

The Beatles used (moog? not sure) synths on Abbey Road...it didn't sound natural either. Yet, synths are widely accepted these days.

Blabla....

Aw man, I should stop. Too much alcohol... :)
 
Believe it or not I agree here :D. I dub guitar stuff that wouldn't be possible to play. My attitude is, "why should I limit my imagination to just ten fingers". The same holds true with drum programming. Some genres don't call for real drum sounds anyway, and I've heard some amazingly creative uses of Fruity Loops and strange sampled sounds by some people in the clinic.

But sometimes the drum machine just jumps out at me, ya know, and it's the biggest problem for me in the mix. Sometimes the out of tune vocals bug me, sometimes they don't. Just depends on the context, I suppose.
 
Some genres don't call for real drum sounds anyway
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*I'm thinking out loud here*

Hehe, I always think of popmusic as a genre for which you absolutely need a real drummer. But when I hear the drumcomputers of late XTC or the backwards gated & tuned down (or whatever he's doing with it :) ) Linn drums on Prince's older records, and it sounds perfectly OK in my ears...weird, but perfect. Imagine Kiss by Prince with a real drummer (or drumsounds), it would sound pretty good of course. But it would sound more like a regular blues based popsong, not as half as interesting and fresh. Yet, when I have to choose sounds for a popsong I always end up with the most 'natural' sounding ones. It's hard to be as courageous and daring as my idols. :)

Anyway, the most important thing is: whatever sounds you choose, make 'm sound good and make sure that they fit the song.

But sometimes the drum machine just jumps out at me
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Sure, if the programmer is lazy (or doesn't have the right knowledge) a programmed drumbeat can sound pretty dull or dumb. But if you have worked really hard on it, I'm sure people will appreciate the hard labour.

Hey, I just thought of an interesting question: what do you prefer?

-A real drummer, well recorded but unfortunately he has a hopeless sense of timing.
-A programmed drumbeat with excellent sounds but with immaculate timing, in other words '100% grooveless'

Tough question, I don't even what to choose myself :). I'm afraid I'd choose the last one.
 
pglewis said:
Perfect pitch is bullshit... the tempered scale is not sacred nor the be all end all. Sometimes those between notes and sluring the notes is very effective for a feel.
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This is so true, if I were a hot blonde I'd kiss you! LOL :D

Btw, Dobro...excuse me for taking your thread and fill it with my free association bullshit. Let's say you tickled me.... :)
 
It's okay - I got my question answered (thanks, those of you who took the time to respond), and then the thread got all interesting at the end.

btw, I redid the vocal.
 
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