Are Virtual Instruments too good?

[benherron.rrr]

This is a question thats been on my mind for a while now.

when writing/recording songs I use a hand full of virtual instruments, such as Addictive drums and NI pianos. I have always found it difficult to mix them well with recorded vocals and guitar. So I began wondering if they are infact to good to match quality in a simple studio setup in my bedroom. I know my recorded tracks arnt the most professional quality but they are near close.

Does anyone have this trouble?

I could use some general advice, for mixing virtual drums and piano with recorded tracks. How can I get round the fact that they were sampled in a far better room than mine? How can I match that space in my mixing process to blend them together well?

 

[kcearl]

I think the midi files associated with drum programmes are too good to match a home recorders product but not the samples...hit a drum in the middle or the key on a decent piano and its going to sound basically the same...yeah they use top mics and preamps but really once in the mix Id doubt it would make much difference to the majorities ears <shrug>

Just make sure you arent using a preset kit or the inbuilt effects on some of these so you can add your own in the mix...but to be honest in the short time Ive been doing this its the first Ive heard someone say that the actual samples may be too good...theres plenty of plug in to deteriorate their sound if thats what you want

 

[Gizzmo0815]

Nah...

No such thing as too good!

But I do find that percussion samples can sometimes be difficult to match with the song I'm laying down. A real drummer can do things with his hands, feet and body that will (almost unconsciously) match the style of the song. Softer song? He plays softer, maybe uses brushes, hits the edge of the snare instead of the middle part. Louder song? He compensates. Something you can't do easily with samples.

Also, when you have several different disjointed instruments, (tracking a guitar in your room, vocals in your room a synth from a keyboard (or VSTi) and a kit recorded in a completely different space) it can be difficult to find ways to make them all sound like they were recorded in the same place. Reverb is a start, but it's much more complex than that. With multitrack recording (which is what you're doing every time you use a sample) the goal is typicaly to make the song sound like it happened in real life (maybe with dance/trance/club music it's less important, but still relevant).

 

[grimtraveller]

Are Virtual Instruments too good? This is a question thats been on my mind for a while now.

It's a bit of yes, no and depends !
'Yes', in the sense that each instrument has been recorded in probably the most optimum way possible and very deliberately and with no possibility of notes being mishit or whacks not consistent or squawks and the other things that perfectionists try to avoid.

'No' in the sense that some of them sound really crummy, at least to my ears. Some virtual instruments/samples/VSTis {all one and the same to me} sound so unrealistic that the actual instruments must be in utter contempt of them ! Second class citizens indeed.

'Depends' in the sense that, like most things in recording, it's what the person at the helm does that determines whether something may be of value or not. It was a chance remark in a book by Charlie Watts of the Stones that alerted me to the presence of such creatures as VSTis; When I heard samples of a double bass and acoustic guitar on a CD given away by Sound on sound, I was in awe. With a baby on the way it was the beginning of the end for the double bass, cello, sitar and tampura. It took alot of research and trial and error to find the stuff I was looking for, buy this, try that {I didn't know how to access free downloads in those computer illiterate days of 2004 !}, this'll do for now, damn, I'm selling that........

I tended to just go with a plug and play mentality, without any thought as to the magic circle of tweaking......I always use real instruments with a little in the way of samples/vstis where necesary and I've learned that tweaking is the key. Firstly, you want to get the instrument to sound real, like it's meant to. Stuff all that pzzzazz about being able to 'bow a flute' or 'pluck a saxophone' or 'blow a piano'. I have sitar samples because I love the sound of the sitar, etc, etc. The idea for me, is to get them sounding not perfect sonically, in terms of the effects and cleanliness, but real, like the actual instrument. And when playing, especially with a controller keyboard, I find it crucial to think in terms of the actual instrument being played, so if I'm playing flute, think like a flautist, if bansuri, think like a bansurist....RAMI made a really vital point in an earlier thread when he pointed out that when so many non drummers programme drums, they don't think like drummers and therefore end up missing out on the nuances of drummers. Well, that can follow for all vsti users. It takes a certain amount of thought and effort to use them, rather like amp sims which take some tweaking.
When mixing the instrument into a full mix with real instruments recorded in a shitty room, I've found that taking some of the brightness away helps. You want to be careful not to render your vsti 'muddy' or reverby, but perfection isn't the aim, good blend is. Panning also helps and not making the vsti 'stand out' if at all possible, slight masking by the other instruments. It'll be different for drums, but this makes a useful start point. I think many vsti users find their level, eventually. Sometimes you can tell it's a sample, but much of the time, you really can't.

 

[Klagen]

Just a thought that springed to mind, what would happend if you recorded the midi tracks ? I.E play them out of your monitor and record them through your microphone and use the tracks that way. I dunno, its just a wild thought, it probably sucks but

i got the same problem kind of, you could always go for lower quality soundfonts, or try your best mixing them.

 

[grimtraveller]

Just a thought that springed to mind, what would happend if you recorded the midi tracks ? I.E play them out of your monitor and record them through your microphone and use the tracks that way. I dunno, its just a wild thought, it probably sucks but.....

I forgot to mention this ~ a wild thought it may be. Suck it certainly does not.

 

[Klagen]

I forgot to mention this ~ a wild thought it may be. Suck it certainly does not.

That might be worth it to try then I never tried it myself, it was just an escaped thought haha.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Too good? The problem I have with them is they are either not good enough, too boring, or both.

 

[benherron.rrr]

Either or neither. what I do know is that I dont have £10000 to spend on a grand piano I can get for £90. Neither do I know a drummer. I just want some advie about how I can work with them to make my recorded tracks sit well with the samples or the samples sit well with my recorded tracks.

 

[kcearl]

Either or neither. what I do know is that I dont have £10000 to spend on a grand piano I can get for £90. Neither do I know a drummer. I just want some advie about how I can work with them to make my recorded tracks sit well with the samples or the samples sit well with my recorded tracks.

neither do most of us...but to be honest I have no more or less trouble with samples as I do anything else...in fact guitars give me my biggest headache..maybe because Im not used to mixing them

as for drums use EQ and compression carefully on dry samples and they'll sit, some of the acoustic stuff Ive played around with sounds pretty realistic I think..and I do use pianos a bit in house tunes...I find when they get lost in the mix, especially amongst pads and/or strings, a little touch of chorus or a flanger can add the movement that helps bring them out

 

[diggy_dude]

RAMI made a really vital point in an earlier thread when he pointed out that when so many non drummers programme drums, they don't think like drummers and therefore end up missing out on the nuances of drummers.

I've heard this idea in a number of contexts related to electronic music, and it's one of those key ideas that has stuck with me. It was one of the things that led me to MIDI-fy some old drum pads to program my rhythm composers rather than using the built-in keys.

 

[grimtraveller]

Befriend some drummers !

I just want some advice about how I can work with them to make my recorded tracks sit well with the samples or the samples sit well with my recorded tracks.

My earlier post was a starting point [taking away some brightness, recording the sample 'dry', not having it 'stand out', a little instrument masking...]. As KCearl alluded, this is kind of a new~ish area for people and as such, you need to put in the experimental time. I know that's not much of an answer, but it is achievable. My early vsti efforts are so n00Bescent, you can hear all kinds of scatter~gunning as I try fast instrument runs and note bends. Then I began to think seriously about the player of the instrument.....
Chibi is right in a way when he says some of the sounds are boring. But that's good, they're boringly correct. The trick is in utilizing the correctness to your own ends {dirtying up, if necesary}, and fitting it to your soundscape. You have tools at your disposal and trial'n'error to help you through the good times !
A tremendous amount of recording and mixing technique came about through accidents, controlled accidents, thought out "I wonders...", experiments and mule headed rebellion.

 

[timkroeger]

I can only speak of my experience with AddictiveDrums where you really need to be careful with the preset kits and inbuilt effects just as kcearl pointed out. They mostly sound great when soloed but might not fit your song. Always use the clean kits and learn to mix the separate channels (bass drum, snare, hihat, overheads, room mic, toms). You can send them to different tracks, mix those in your DAW and add FX just as needed. Yo might not get an awesome sound from the beginning but it's much more like the real deal, dealing with accoustic drums.

Regarding midi files, velocity and variation of samples used (e.g. for snare) is very important. No drummer hits the snare with the same force and at the exact same point every time. There are shallow hits, open hits, shallow and open rimshots... Same with hihat: different open samples, different closed samples, different samples regarding the amount of opening of the hihat. Same with the ride cymbal: hit it with the tip or hit it with the shaft. I found some of the AD midi files pretty good, as long as they were played and recorded by a real drummer. There's a "sloppy drums" package that really earns its name

Cheers
Tim

 

[benherron.rrr]

I can only speak of my experience with AddictiveDrums where you really need to be careful with the preset kits and inbuilt effects just as kcearl pointed out. They mostly sound great when soloed but might not fit your song. Always use the clean kits and learn to mix the separate channels (bass drum, snare, hihat, overheads, room mic, toms). You can send them to different tracks, mix those in your DAW and add FX just as needed. Yo might not get an awesome sound from the beginning but it's much more like the real deal, dealing with accoustic drums.

Regarding midi files, velocity and variation of samples used (e.g. for snare) is very important. No drummer hits the snare with the same force and at the exact same point every time. There are shallow hits, open hits, shallow and open rimshots... Same with hihat: different open samples, different closed samples, different samples regarding the amount of opening of the hihat. Same with the ride cymbal: hit it with the tip or hit it with the shaft. I found some of the AD midi files pretty good, as long as they were played and recorded by a real drummer. There's a "sloppy drums" package that really earns its name

Cheers
Tim

There was a thread in the cubase forum about sparating the channels out. I used to work with the presets but after realising that they just dont work. I am trying a method of using the dry kit, exporting each as an audio file and working with it as if it was really recorded. if for no use other than practise. I find drums the hardest. as Im not a drummer and have no to little knowlage of how they work. It becomes very difficult to programme drums from scratch. I have found the Midi files of use. But unless you happen to have a song written to that exact rhythm. its hard to take them the last hurdle

 

[grimtraveller]

I could use some general advice, for mixing virtual drums and piano with recorded tracks. How can I get round the fact that they were sampled in a far better room than mine? How can I match that space in my mixing process to blend them together well?

This week I've been listening to some mid to late 90s R&B {Lauren Hill, Angie Stone, Maxwell, MaryMary and could also apply to Seal, Tony Rich, D'Angelo, Curtis Mayfield, Des'ree, Erykah Badu...} and it's recently become noticeable to me that the drums aren't 'real'. But only because I've been listening to the drums really closely with the specific intention of determining whether they are sampled.
For those that are interested, there is plenty of information on what's programmed and when listening closely, I found that the some of the drums sounded so real that they actually sounded not real. Some of those snares and rimshots are, well, not 'acoustic'. But I stress that I was looking out for that and in truth, when I'm listening to the songs as a whole, I don't care one way or the other. In fact, after listening to US3's "Broadway and 52nd" album, with it's 'perfect' drums, I don't think of the sampled drums in that way anymore. I treat them as part of the fabric of the given sound. For what they are, those sampled drums sound great to me. They carry a crisp smack and a deep BOOF though I don't drool over the hi~hat simulations. I prefer acoustic drums but that's neither here nor there. I dig both. Interestingly, I saw Angie Stone in concert some years back and she used a live band with a real human drummer.
I no longer get puristy about things any more. {Except autotune ! Learn to stay in tune !! }
Have a listen to Chili's stuff. He uses one of those drum programmes and you know what ? They work. Well. His songs are pretty arresting and damned good songs deflect the attention away from the individual elements.....initially. But when you do listen hard, I can't say those drums detract from the quality of the songs.
Let us know how your experiments go.

 

[Will Smythe]

Sup dudes

At home I use Cubase SE - with a audio delta interface 4 I/O

For midi I use a Edirol sound canvas.



When i was studying at uni I had to produce an entire album of industry standard recordings as a project.

Recorded it all at home and used a MIDI String quartet - synth pads and programmed drums/percussion to finalise.

Felt like a huge process!



I understand what your original post is saying.

MIDI samples are way too clear to sound correctly positioned.

I thought it was initially because my MIDI samples were 24 bit and my AUDIO was 16 bit
To overcome this, i single handedly adjusted the velocities so they sound more human. i like to go a bit further to really capture a change in the timbre of the MIDI instrument.
These instruments are then to be re-bounced back into your arrangement as audio. This way i found i could change my output MIDI into something i could process (with compressors, noise gates, EQ, reverb etc).

Please take note - extremely effective when using tuned instruments. Full drum kits however - suffer a wow-ing effect as the compressor can't adapt to the ever changing striking differences of the audio.

For each song on my record - i split all the drum kit up and positioned everything according with automation - thus removing the wow effect.

Guitars were EQ'd in an interlocking way to eliminate the competition they had for certain frequency band.



Its Heavy Metal - but have a listen to the final quality. Landed me 2 A- 's at an Bachelor of arts level.

www.myspace.com/willsmytheproductions



Should really update to protools M-powered shortly.
Latency was a huge problem. and the 3 band Mastering I use did not give me the freedom i needed over the final sound.

 

[Will Smythe]

oh one more thing

Check out the production on
some stevie wonder material
- do i do - for example.

Much of the drums are centered.

Fanfare brass is compressed to buggery and arranged around the listener.

extremely masterful production, if you ask me

 

[Twinhit]

I can only speak of my experience with AddictiveDrums where you really need to be careful with the preset kits and inbuilt effects just as kcearl pointed out. They mostly sound great when soloed but might not fit your song. Always use the clean kits and learn to mix the separate channels (bass drum, snare, hihat, overheads, room mic, toms). You can send them to different tracks, mix those in your DAW and add FX just as needed. Yo might not get an awesome sound from the beginning but it's much more like the real deal, dealing with accoustic drums.

Regarding midi files, velocity and variation of samples used (e.g. for snare) is very important. No drummer hits the snare with the same force and at the exact same point every time. There are shallow hits, open hits, shallow and open rimshots... Same with hihat: different open samples, different closed samples, different samples regarding the amount of opening of the hihat. Same with the ride cymbal: hit it with the tip or hit it with the shaft. I found some of the AD midi files pretty good, as long as they were played and recorded by a real drummer. There's a "sloppy drums" package that really earns its name

Cheers
Tim

No drummer hits the snare with the same force....
I don't know about that. I played drums in the marching band and there IS some emphasis to force control.

 

[legionserial]

Never had a problem with getting MIDI instruments to sit with everything else in a mix. I often don't find I have to do much more than set the levels and use a high pass filter if neccessary.