Apex 460

[Frank Sheehan]

I am relatively new to recording at home, and I am in the market for an affordable vocal mic. I am hearing great things about the Apex 460. I haven't seen anything on it here. Does anyone have any experience with this one?

 

[giraffe]

https://homerecording.com/bbs/search.php?searchid=585455

you probably weren't looking hard enough.

 

[krs]

It's definitely got the Chinese high end sizzle thing go on. Comparable in that regard to the Studio Projects stuff. Other than that it's pretty decent, good detail for the $. Personally I find Shure and Audio-Technica products more useful and less harsh, and I would definitely try them together to see what suits you.

 

[homestudioguy]

Substitute a 6072 dual triode tube......

Carvin is selling a similar model for $299 that includes a hardshell case and looks a little nicer. I called Carvin Technical about changing out the 12ax7 to a 6072. They said that there would be no problem as far as the electronics are concerned.
Long story short, the 6072 has about 20% of the output of the 12ax7, is less likely to distort, will provide more headroom and should provide a much cleaner sound as opposed to the 12AX7.(Thanks to Torres Engineering for the on-line lesson!)

There is a Canadian Company on eBay selling modified APEX 460's that also changes out some electronics over and above the 6072 tube change-out.
se:http://cgi.ebay.com/UPGRADED-APEX-4...ryZ29950QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

[PhilGood]

Carvin is selling a similar model for $299 that includes a hardshell case and looks a little nicer. I called Carvin Technical about changing out the 12ax7 to a 6072. They said that there would be no problem as far as the electronics are concerned.
Long story short, the 6072 has about 20% of the output of the 12ax7, is less likely to distort, will provide more headroom and should provide a much cleaner sound as opposed to the 12AX7.(Thanks to Torres Engineering for the on-line lesson!)

There is a Canadian Company on eBay selling modified APEX 460's that also changes out some electronics over and above the 6072 tube change-out.
se:http://cgi.ebay.com/UPGRADED-APEX-4...ryZ29950QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

If I'm not mistaken, a 12AX7 has a gain factor of 100, the 12AT7 has a gain factor of 60 and the 12AY7 (6072) has a gain factor of 44. Either of the last two will reduce the sizzle, but I feel the 12AT7 reduces it enough and still keeps the self noise to a minimum.

Oh, and the Apex 460, Nady TCM-1150 and the Carvin model are all the same mic. I've seen the Nady go for $179 on eBay new. They all claim to use a 6072, but it's not. It's a 12AX7.

 

[scrubs]

scroll down to the bottom of the page for related posts.

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[Frank Sheehan]

Thanks folks. Great help.

 

[BmC_41]

anyone know where to find a chart or instructions to do the mod on the apex 460?

 

[Big Kenny]

where does the 12au7 fall in that progression?

 

[PhilGood]

where does the 12au7 fall in that progression?

The 12AU7 is at the bottom of the chart, with a gain of 19.

 

[PhilGood]

anyone know where to find a chart or instructions to do the mod on the apex 460?

The only mods I know of are these:

1. Change the tube to a 12AY7 (6072A more preferable) or a 12AT7.

2. Get a better transformer. The ratio is either 8:1 or 11:1 depending on who the source of information is. Cinemag makes good trafos.

3. Replace the capsule. Something like a Peluso or better. The Peluso's are suppose to be really good. I'm about to order one or two. This will probably have the greatest effect on the sound.

4. Remove the 2 innermost layers of sceen on the grill.

5. Change the circuit from a cathode follower to a grid circuit. This is something I am planning on doing, but haven't had the time. When I do it, I will probably post how. I may just build the circuit as a C12 and see what happens, but that will be much more complicated, and I'm not sure it's worth the effort.

 

[h1pst3r88]

Phil, are you going to use the peluso CEK 89? There's a guy on ebay who is selling an Apex 460 upgraded with the peluso, a sovtek 6072 tube, and "some cap changes" for $400.

Worth it? How will the peluso change the sound of stock 460 (or Nady 1150)?

I figured if a Nady 1150 is $200, (not knowing the cost of a Peluso CEK 89) + the labor for the caps and tube, is the auction price a good one? Oh, and the Kustom olive paint...it ain't free you know!

Seriously though...since you have the 1150, how do you think it would sound with a peluso?

Cheers,

h1pste3r

 

[PhilGood]

Phil, are you going to use the peluso CEK 89? There's a guy on ebay who is selling an Apex 460 upgraded with the peluso, a sovtek 6072 tube, and "some cap changes" for $400.

Worth it? How will the peluso change the sound of stock 460 (or Nady 1150)?

I figured if a Nady 1150 is $200, (not knowing the cost of a Peluso CEK 89) + the labor for the caps and tube, is the auction price a good one? Oh, and the Kustom olive paint...it ain't free you know!

Seriously though...since you have the 1150, how do you think it would sound with a peluso?

Cheers,

h1pste3r

I have been told that the peluso capsules are quite good sounding, but no one I know has used the CEK 89. Everyone talks about the CEK-367 or the CEK-12. One person described them as having a smooth, almost 3-D sound. I have yet to buy one as I've spent too much money on other things. I will get around to it, but I will buy the CEK-367. John knows a great deal. Dave Geren at Cinemag has told me his mics sound very good and he is very thorough about QC.

I personally don't think the cap changes make too much of a difference, as the quality of components are good in the first place. The biggest faults with the mics are what I've listed before. Trafo, tube, capsule. The sound is pretty useful stock. A better capsule would be the greatest improvement.

I think the guy doing the green 460 is a Canadian guy, Dave Thomas (not from Wendy's) who is gaining some good reputation. I personally cannot tell you if its worth it or not, but my guess would be it is a much better mic than the stock Apex or Nady.

 

[PhilGood]

Seriously though...since you have the 1150, how do you think it would sound with a peluso?

OK, after thinking this over thoroughly, the stock capsule is the biggest flaw. A peluso capsule would probably transform the mic more than anything else. Although my preferrence would be a CEK-367. With this and a grill mod, the mic would probably be a vast improvement. A cinemag trafo and changing the cathode follower circuit would make it stelar!!!

But don't quote me on that.

 

[h1pst3r88]

Thanks Phil!

h1pst3r

 

[drtaudio]

Hi Phil, the transformer ratio is 10.5:1 and the Cinemag CM-2480 works nicely.

I would not recommend removing the inner screen as it will cause the capsule to shut down sooner from moist air particles coming from the vocalists breath plus the capsule will get contaminated much more easily with dirt particles.

As you stated the capsule replacement and 6072a tube upgrade will make the largest difference in sound. We also replace the electrolytic coupling capacitor with a larger mylar as electrolytics have a 20% tolerance and the low frequency response can vary between microphones. the electrolytic will also break down sooner and does not respond to fast transient hf information as quickly as the mylar cap. The Chinese "Alctron capsules" which are also used in the Telefunken RFT M16 are a bit inconsistent and can vary 2-5 db in their midrange response making some brighter sounding than others. I have been able to "tweak" some of these in and tame them a bit. I quite like a "good" original chinese ALCTRON capsule on acoustic instruments and for room microphones with its typical lift at 2.7khz.

I really like the 460 "ALCTRON" cathode follower circuit as its an improvement over the AKG C12 circuit. My original 1966 RCA tube manual states, "The use of the cathode follower circuit permits a design that has a high input impedance and high output voltage. The output impedance is quite low and provides excellent damping to the load (good design when coupling to transformers). The cathode follower circuit also yields very low distortion figures. The Peak to Peak signal voltage approaches 1.5 times the plate voltage (this means it will swing a high peak to peak output voltage than the plate coupled circuit). There is no plate resistor required in the cathode follower circuit which decreases the peak to peak output voltage available to the output transformer.

With the Peluso CEK-89/Cinemag CM-2480 and tube/capacitor upgrade the 460 will now respond like a U67. With the CEK-12 Peluso capsule and Cinemag transformer the 460 will respond like a C12/ELAM 251 and with a CEK-367 capsule it will have a Tele U47 response.

I have a client that has our CM-12 (Apex 460 with CEK-12, tube cap upgrade and Cinemag output transformer). He uses the Advanced Audio CM-12 50% of the time on vocals and his beloved Neumann 149 the other 50% of the time.

The APEX 460/NADY TCM1150 and even the TCM-1050 are great building blocks and easily accept Peluso capsules, Cinemag transformer and some circuit upgrades.

We have upgraded many of these microphone for some very happy customers.

Best regards, Dave Thomas (Advanced Audio Microphones)
drthomas@telus.net

The only mods I know of are these:

1. Change the tube to a 12AY7 (6072A more preferable) or a 12AT7.

2. Get a better transformer. The ratio is either 8:1 or 11:1 depending on who the source of information is. Cinemag makes good trafos.

3. Replace the capsule. Something like a Peluso or better. The Peluso's are suppose to be really good. I'm about to order one or two. This will probably have the greatest effect on the sound.

4. Remove the 2 innermost layers of sceen on the grill.

5. Change the circuit from a cathode follower to a grid circuit. This is something I am planning on doing, but haven't had the time. When I do it, I will probably post how. I may just build the circuit as a C12 and see what happens, but that will be much more complicated, and I'm not sure it's worth the effort.

 

[dainja]

I want to mod my Apex460 but I want to confirm what the best mods to do are before I do them.

Here's what I've got:

1) Change tube to a 6072A (Should I pay 11$ US for the Electro Harmonix 6072A or 55$+ for a rare GE NOS JAN 6072A tube?)
2) Change transformer to Cinemag CM-2480
3) Change capacitors to Black Gates. Which specific electrolytic Black Gates should I get? Where? Or should I change them to mylar capacitors? (are there "better" brands to look for?)

Should I remove the cathode follower circuit? Dave Thomas seems to be saying he thinks it's a GOOD thing but everyone else seems to be removing them!

I know the capsule will make a big difference but I want to hold back on that 250$ expense until I've done the other mods.

 

[rmaier]

The cheaper tubes will probably be too noisy. Mine sounded better with NOS GEs. I used Black Gates from Parts Connection (Canada). Not sure if they have any left. Removing the cathode follower circuit was also an improvement.

Check out this thread (if you haven't already):
https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=196274&highlight=apex+460+mod
Lots of ideas on capacitor values. I ended up using 3.3s.

 

[PhilGood]

I want to mod my Apex460 but I want to confirm what the best mods to do are before I do them.

Here's what I've got:

1) Change tube to a 6072A (Should I pay 11$ US for the Electro Harmonix 6072A or 55$+ for a rare GE NOS JAN 6072A tube?)
2) Change transformer to Cinemag CM-2480
3) Change capacitors to Black Gates. Which specific electrolytic Black Gates should I get? Where? Or should I change them to mylar capacitors? (are there "better" brands to look for?)

Should I remove the cathode follower circuit? Dave Thomas seems to be saying he thinks it's a GOOD thing but everyone else seems to be removing them!

I know the capsule will make a big difference but I want to hold back on that 250$ expense until I've done the other mods.

The Electro Harmonix are fine. You just have to find a good sounding tube, low noise. It really can be any brand. All tubes can sound different, even amongst the same brand and batch. There can be good tubes and bad.

The Black Gate is only used in the cathode bypass part of the circuit. It is an important part though. Removing it will result in a loss of punch and fullness. If you can't find a Black Gate, use a Nichicon Muse or KZ or Fine Gold series. You could also use Elna Cerafine, but I don't think they're as good.

For the coupling caps you would do best to use a polystyrene for C4 and at least mylar for C8. Mylar is the minimum for audio quality in a tube circuit. Polypropylene would be preferred if you can find one that will fit.

Plus, the best mod you can do to that mic that will be the most drastic improvement would be to put in a decent transducer (capsule) instead of the one that's stock.

 

[MichaelJoly]

...Plus, the best mod you can do to that mic that will be the most drastic improvement would be to put in a decent transducer (capsule) instead of the one that's stock.

Its great to hear someone say this. The stock K67-type capsule driving the flat frequency response Apex 460 circuit is a bad match. The Neumann K67 capsule was designed with a peaked HF response and was followed by a HF de-emphasis circuit in the U 67 to provide headroom extension, sibilance reduction and a well-loved timbre balance.

So tube rolling, capacitor swaps, a transformer upgrade and a cathode-follower lobotomy do nothing to correct the basic design flaw of the Apex 460 - its capsule / circuit frequency response is mis-matched. The two fundemental ways to improve the Apex 460 are to keep the stock K67 type capsule and implement the correct HF de-emphasis circuit OR replace the stock capsule with a flatter response K47 type capsule - a capsule that is an ideal match for the flat frequency response circuit found in this mic.

Once the capsule / circuit mis-match is taken care of then tube rolling, capacitors swaps, a transformer upgrade and cathode follower elimination may make some sense. But once the designed-in 8dB, 8 kHz peak of the K67 is eliminated (either by changing to a K47-type capsule or through correct, electronic de-emphasis) the transformer no longer gets hit as hard in the HF and will work better as a result - in many cases saving the expense of a transformer upgrade.