Anyone hear the digital overs?

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sonusman

sonusman

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I am trying to see if anyone else notices the digital overs during the chorus's and when the little lead guitar licks happen during the verses. Let me know.

This mix is by far the most compression I have ever used during mastering. It is also the first mix I have done in 2 years where I didn't run the mixer to an ART tube preamp before the mixdown device. I don't think I will ever NOT use the ART again on a mix. I found it very hard to get good levels, and a "open" sound to the mix without using one.

Ed
 
I don't notice them much at all, or at all. I do find the lead a shade loud, maybe bringing it down a touch would solve both problems. Maybe a little more uneven panning left and right if it's double tracked, sounds kinda mono phased, an in your face sound.

Very nice mix, very clean and strong.



[This message has been edited by Emeric (edited 05-30-2000).]
 
Do you mean a digital over that was normalized after the fact? I see a few squared off looking peaks, but I don't hear anything but a nice mix. Only artifact I heard was a crackling sound during the fade out. And when listening to that again really loud in headphones it seems like just the growl of the guitar tone fading out naturally.
Go figure!
I like that vocal return from silence at 2:08 with the vocals dry!!
 
After listening 3 times, the only thing I noticed (besides the click/pop at the end) is the song is catchy as hell. Liked the lyrics, too... who's the band?

Peeking in SF, the peaks it registered were always on the kick. It didn't seem to be audible, even when I knew EXACTLY where it was.
 
I am the least technically knowledgable on this site probably.....I listened last nite on pc speakers, then this morning on home set up...and this mix is superb to me...so from a non professional (read typical consumer) viewpoint, it doesn't get much better than that...plus the song was cool...gibs
 
I did not notice the any pops. I do see what you mean about the compression, but at least it does not pump. The mix did sound very good.

[This message has been edited by Fishmed (edited 05-31-2000).]
 
Ed, I don't think I have the ears to hear the compression. The mix sounds tight and punchy to me. I noticed the pop/click at the end... was that an anomoly of the mp3 conversion? or is it on the original? By the way, I really dig this song.
 
Thanks for the feedback guys.

Really, for two days I was hearing some crackle and distortion during the chorus's and during any part the lead guitar came in. I was hearing it on the original .wav file, and the mp3 (the mp3 was twice as bad).

But I rebooted last night, and this morning I opened both files in GoldWave for a listen after reading all the feedback. Guess what? Not there anymore! Yes, a little crackle during the intro, and right at the end (those are on the ADAT tapes unfortunately and on playing trakcs, so they can't be muted...)

Listened to them again with Media Player 7.0. Ah Ha!!! Seems I have found the culprit! Don't hear the dirt in Wavelab, my proprietary recording software from Lynx, or GoldWave, but it is there in Media Player 7.0. Looks like I am back to WinAmp...

I found it odd that it was there because I used my Wave plug in's for mastering, and when the output of the L1 UltraMaximizer is set to -.1db, I never got any distortion, or digital overs before on other mixes.

Anyway....

Emeric. The version you heard is actually not the finale mix. The lead is a little more tucked in the finale mix. But good call...

Doc. Thanks. Having automated mutes on the Ghost really helps with those drastic changes in parts when you want to go dry...

pglewis. The band is Love Lode, who was the first client in my studio, and recorded 2 CD's here before they broke up last summer. I am playing guitar on this song. This is the song that I am submitting for the HomeRecording.com compilation CD. It was recorded 3 years ago (mixed last weekend). My first recording in Echo Star Studio. I re-recorded the guitar parts onto a different tape after the band would leave the studio because I wasn't all that happy with the way the guitar's were coming out when they did it. So I wanted a recording of the parts the way I thought they should be done. I didn't ever let the band hear what I did until about a year after they released their CD that had this song on it. When they did hear it, they sort of grumbled about how they should have tried the guitars the way I suggested after hearing my version of the parts.... :) Live and learn eh?

gibs. Thanks. Although, I think you are being too modest...

Fishmed. Thanks again bud! I actually wanted a little compressor splash on the mix to make the kick drum a bit bigger. I think I set the Release on the L1 UltraMaximizer to about 130 ms. Any shorter and the kick sounded too stabby. Any longer and you could really start to hear pumping. So I thought I got pretty close to a invisible limiting on the mix. I DID manage to increase the RMS level by almost 6db without creating pumping effects.... :D Not too shabby for mid level digital mastering I suppose. I just thought that this song would benefit from a little overcompression. Once I got the EQ right, the compression had the desired effect (had to dump a little 250Hz, and a little 2KHz, and set the Low Cut to about 55Hz with a 12db roll off. Added about 3db of some High Shelf set at 16KHz).

Teddie. Thanks. Definately on the tapes.... :(

Ed
 
I've listened to this cut like 6 times today. I like it a lot, clean as hell mix, but something bugs me with the vocals. The vocals aren't bad or anything and maybe it's just me, but it's like the two vocals are competing with each other throughout the entire song. Maybe if the vocals were mixed where there was one lead during line one of each verse ( panned toward center ) then the second ( alto ) vocal came in for line 2 of the verse . . . panning the lead toward center and then left and right for the blend ? I donno . . . just trying to hear it in my head. The guitar work is superb !

Regards,
PAPicker
 
My $0.02. Please don't read more into it than that!

The clean guitar in the intro is a little sterile and compressed-sounding in my opinion (I'm more of a Fender clean sound fan), but the dirty guitars have a nice thickness to them that I like despite the fact that the actual tone is just a hair on the buzzy side for my taste. It really shows that you're a very good engineer, because a good engineer can get almost any tone to sit right in the mix (see any Smashing Pumpkins CD for a great example). They sound double-tracked and panned (one of my favorite tricks), although there are other ways to get that sound (i.e. using a stereo doubling effect). These guitars sound pro-to-go! Very nice work with the recording, and the playing is excellent and very tight.

The vocals are "stark" and really clear. Startlingly so. They jump right out of the mix. I think it's a combination of the digital clarity and the fact that there seems to be very little in the way of effects on them.

I could see warming them up a bit, but I can also see keeping them as they are to catch people's attention. Your ear is definitely drawn to them, and not in a bad way at all.

The hard-panned two-part style works for me, and while I agree that they seem to tug at each other (resulting, I think, from a very slight out-of-tuneness to them), I think it gives the song some tension that works with the mood of the music and lyrics.

A really catchy, cool tune, but a particularly well recorded one. Everything sits in its own space nicely.

Great work!

CT

[This message has been edited by CharlesThomas (edited 05-31-2000).]
 
This is a great mix man ... very punchy and powerful. Is this the kick in the 'rotor' picture?
 
PAPicker. This was actually the first time that the bass player in Love Lode had ever sang a lead line in the studio. He is singing the lower part of the harmony. The lead singer is singing the higher harmony. Trust me, he didn't sound so great on his own.... :). But really, the tension on the vocals were and intentional thing. The actual quality of the singing was less the focus then the words were to the band. I agree though that the two parts really do compete with each other. It was a real bitch to get them the stay together somewhat in the mix. The lower part has some definate dynamic problems due to the inexperience of the bass player lead singing abilities. In spots, the I was compressing his vocal up to 5db to try to keep him from over powering the higher harmony.

Charles. At the time, the band didn't posses any kind of decent sounding amp for recording a clean tone. I agree totally that a nice Twin Reverb amp would have been just the right flavor for it. But, the band really wanted a sort of flat, overcompressed guitar sound for the clean parts. No effects (although I did add a hair of chorus to it at mix). I actually used the same guitar on all the guitar parts, my trusty G&L S 500 (www.echostarstudio.com/Guitars.JPG). The "buzzy" tone is probably due more to the Marshall JCM 900 we used on the distorted sounds. All in all though, for this band, the tone works well enough. I do know that at the time we tracked, I was still learning my monitors, so I suppose I would go for very different sounds now, after three years of working on my Events.

BigK. Thanks man. No, the rotor in the kick is a different session and band. That stuff will probably be mixed this summer as the band still has a few tracks to finish up (geez, it has only taken a year and a half to track... :( ). This song uses "Pillow" preset from an Alesis D-4, as the original kick drum sounded like ka-ka poo..... :)

Ed
 
>I agree totally that a nice Twin Reverb amp would have been just the right flavor for it.

It's a matter of taste, but I just love the Fender clean sound (Deluxe Reverb, Twin, or even the Showman). Especially with a Strat!

>But, the band really wanted a sort of flat, overcompressed guitar sound for the clean parts.

Bottom line: You gave them exactly what they wanted, and that's your job.

I worked with a group before who wanted the full-on "Disco" production. Not my taste, but you have to give them what they want. I went with the "porno wah" clean guitar, octave bass line, off-beat choked hi-hat, and the whole bit. :D


>The "buzzy" tone is probably due more to the Marshall JCM 900 we used on the distorted sounds

Absolutely. The other guitar player in my band had one (JCM-900), and I recognized it immediately. They've got that "diode distortion" thing going on. But as I said, you did an amazing job making the sound VERY professional and full. There's nothing bad about the guitar tone at all.

>All in all though, for this band, the tone works well enough.

Agreed 100%.

CT
 
The drums sound great! Can you recall any of the details of how your recorded 'em? I seem to have good days and bad days with my live drum recordings... but then again, I've been recording everything through my Mackie preamps without any up front compression.
 
Well, I don't know what digital overs are, so I just listened for something that sounded like it shouldn't be there. Everything sounded good to me. I liked the split vocals a lot - this would work really well on a song that was more tortured and less confident than this one, too. You playing all the guitar on this, Ed? I like the way it ends, too. (dobro makes mental note...)

So this is a super-compressed sound? Have you got something posted at your site that's relatively uncompressed, so I can compare?
 
sure dobro, just about any other tune I mastered is relatively uncompressed. That was the thing though about this song, it is not really "overcompressed" sounding. I used the Waves L1 Ultramaximizer for compression. What a plug in! :) And yes, sonusman on guitar.

pglewis. The only thing I did not track was the drums (the whole CD was tracked at another studio, but everything but the drums was re-tracked at my studio because most of the initial tracking was garage sounding. Long story). The drums were copied from a Tascam 16 1" machine to ADAT's. The kick drum is the Pillow patch on a Alesis D-4. The snare was actually resent back through the console from the ADAT's, eq'ed a bit, turned up a lot because the volume was really low on the analog tape, then recorded back to ADAT again. At mix, it was gated, compressed, eq'ed again. I don't care for the toms at all. I can't gate them successfully (and the snare bleed on the tom tracks are pretty bad) so they just stay a bit down in the mix because any eq I do to make them sound more present just brings the snare and cymbal bleed out that much more. Oh well.

Ed

[This message has been edited by sonusman (edited 06-03-2000).]
 
Great tight sound there sonus. This song just makes me realize that I have a shitload yet to learn about production.
 
Hey, thanks X. You know, your post makes me think about the fact that I still feel like I have a buttload more to learn about production too. My goal is to make GOOD money as an engineer (mostly mixing as I tend to hate the tracking stage :) ). My dream is to have a song I mixed on the radio nationally.

But man, when I listen to CD's produced and engineered by the big time dudes, in the big time studios, I think my stuff just doesn't even get anywhere close. There are days when I just want to say "f*ck it!" and sell everything off and start a new profession, like hot tar roofing or something.... :D

This was a hard song to mix. It was tracked 3 years ago and I hear so many things I would have done differently now. Oh well. I supposed most creations are like that.

I think what really keeps me going is an unshakable belief in my ability to get better. I try to never be satisfied with what I have done. If something bugs me enough, I pursue trying to solve it rigerously.

Try this out. A more recent mix.


Ed
 
Neopolitan
Man oh man ...
I dig this tune in a BIG way. I love the jazz/metal clash. Man, this sounds freakin amazing. The horns sound so natural. What mic(s) did you use on those? Especially on the trumpet solo ... very warm sounding (for lack of a better term). I'm also interested to know what kind of snare that is ... sounds really tight. Of course, great drum sound as usual. Great job capturing the dynamics of the band. That makes this tune!
Man, this is by far my fav from you dude ...
Thanks a lot for sharing!
 
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