Analogue newbie - now!

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mwhouston

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I'm a newbie. Tell me how I do an analogue recording. I have some Behringer mics B2s & (including the T-47 valve mic), Behringer valve preamps. What do I record to if I want to go analogue all the way.

Tell me and I will buy it tomorrow? I must be able to get it (whatever it is) from Australia.

Make my recording.
 
I would say buy a 4 track cassette and then you're all analog. Very easy way to start off. And instant gratification.
 
Welcome to the forum. Ah, you probably need to give us a lot more information about what it is you want to record, where it is and what it's for for us to be of any assistance.

G
 
I have been recording large male choirs and a solo classical pianist. I'm currently using the Behringers T-47 tube mics, Behringer 100 tube preamp and Behringer 24bit A2D through fireware to my laptop. I am trying to get software which will allow me to burn DVD-A.

I think wihtout going to a tape machine I'm stuck with digital. Even if I record to tape I have to make CD from the anyhow. So what is the gain? And how much for a decent tape machine??
 
How many individual tracks to do you record at once?
 
I have been recording large male choirs and a solo classical pianist. I'm currently using the Behringers T-47 tube mics, Behringer 100 tube preamp and Behringer 24bit A2D through fireware to my laptop. I am trying to get software which will allow me to burn DVD-A.

I think wihtout going to a tape machine I'm stuck with digital. Even if I record to tape I have to make CD from the anyhow. So what is the gain? And how much for a decent tape machine??

OK, so it sounds like you're just doing fairly straight forward live performances and not doing multi-track overdubbing so you should be able to get by with a higher end 2 track open reel deck running at 15 Inches Per Second or "IPS" for short.

There are many professional quality open reel decks from TASCAM, Otari, Studer that you should be able to find on the used market ranging in price from 300-3000 dollars depending on model and condition.

You'll need two mono preamps to do this or one stereo one. I'm assuming your existing one is a stereo, two channel unit and that it has analog balanced and unbalanced outputs to feed the input on the tape recorder.

You're going to need to do some reading and self education on analog technology as its beyond the scope of a single thread such as this to tell you everything there is to know about analog recording, all the different formats and manufacturers, how to use them and what to look for when purchasing them used. And why I say used is because essentially all factory production of reel to reel recorders has stopped at this point so you couldn't buy new even if you wanted to and were willing to pay full retail prices.

If you've been recording in 24 bit digital, you're going to need a very good quality analog deck that can keep up with those kind of specs that digital can give you, especially in the realm of noise as even decks running at 30 IPS will still produce audible tape his if you're not using noise reduction. The type of music you're recording is probably also going to show off the tape hiss more so then conventional pop/rock/rap/country music as what you're recording will have very quiet parts where the tape hiss and even the electronics's noise will come right through onto the recordings.

What you might gain by going analog is perhaps a smoother tonality with silkier sounding high frequencies but this will not be a night and day difference to the untrained ear so be prepared to be unimpressed if you had some wild expectations about what the differences would be. That said, a high end analog deck, properly calibrated and with careful recording levels can achieve drop dead beautiful sound and is worth using provided you and your clients are capable of hearing the difference. Why that's important in today's age is because so many people end up listening to music in highly compressed MP3 formats and on 5 dollar ear buds so one might wonder if it's all worth it if the end presentation is being done so poorly. Then again, history shows us that teenagers back in the 50,60 and 70's were perfectly happy to listen to their music on 5 dollar AM transistor pocket radios and yet that didn't deter recording studios from recording on state of the art gear!

Cheers! :)
 
Thanks to this forum I have just produced my first DVD-A discs at 24Bit 96K. I recorded at that level and of course DVD-A supports it. It would be hard to go back to tape. I have been through that when a lot younger. Even if I do go analogue all the way I still have to cut CDs. This is a commercial paying job to end up with a CD of the artist!!

Thanks though for all the good advice and at least some insight into what is required. I have just built a portable (9V) valve head phone driver so you can see I like my valves and would love to try high-end tape recording. Not in the near future though.

The HPD uses the JAN6418 valves and this build runs from two 9V lithiums for about 200hours of play time.
 

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Very interesting thread indeed! There's a few things to consider concerning digital and analog and not the least of which is once you've taken the analog recording into a digital medium you no longer have an analog recording. Just a ghost of the analog recording so to speak.

Now if you're interested in analog recording becuase it intrigues you and the analog sound appeals to you then by all means pursue it. However unless you're looking to create copies of the analog master also in analog (read tape) then there is almost no reason to explore analog recording.

I very recently recommisssioned my TEAC reel to reel deck and I am 100% convinced that the sound is superior to even my best digital recordings done in 96/24 via an M-AUdio Delta 66 soundcard. So in this respect having a way to record performances in analog provides a means of hearing a "best quality" recording.

If you're serious about analog you'd do well to shop for a 4 track reel to reel deck like an SONY or TEAC. They're out there at reasonable prices too. Avoid cassett decks as even the very best of them are inferior to digital and reel to reel analog. There is however a clever way of recording high quality analog audio on hi fi VHS recorders. A SONY N-60 is one such recorder and can be had used cheaply.

That said I'm not sure how a person who'se only known digital will fare exploring analog. But it is worth trying at least you'll get to know what real sound actually sounded like. There is a difference and no amount of sample rate and bit depth will ever create a single cohesive analog sine wave that goes in as one piece and gets played back as the same single piece.
 
There is however a clever way of recording high quality analog audio on hi fi VHS recorders. A SONY N-60 is one such recorder and can be had used cheaply.

This is very interesting, could you please elaborate on this?
VCR's are past my generation, i was in my late teens when DVD's came out so i know only little about VCR's and have always wondered how i could tie it in with my analog audio recordings. What kind of comparable quality can i expect if say i record the master off a reel to reel and record a video with a s-vhs camera and put them onto VHS?
 
This is very interesting, could you please elaborate on this?
VCR's are past my generation, i was in my late teens when DVD's came out so i know only little about VCR's and have always wondered how i could tie it in with my analog audio recordings. What kind of comparable quality can i expect if say i record the master off a reel to reel and record a video with a s-vhs camera and put them onto VHS?

Right before DVD hit the market VCR/VHS recorders began to appear with Hi Fi stereo sound that could be recorded onto the video recording via a seperate track and input. Lots of manufacturers made them and I'm sure there are still some made today. However SONY made perhaps the best ones and the SONY N-60 was popular.

To record stereo into one of these you simply treat it like any other recording device. However in order to have a stable stereo audio signal recorded onto the VHS the tuner of the VCR must be tuned to a stereo station either antenna or cable. The SONY N-60 like mine will audio drift between stereo and mono if there isn't a good stereo video signal for the device to lock on to. The sound quality is excellent, way better than a casset recorder and almost on par with a good reel to reel recorder. MY SONY N-60 records and plays back better than CD quality.
 
This is very interesting, could you please elaborate on this?
VCR's are past my generation, i was in my late teens when DVD's came out so i know only little about VCR's and have always wondered how i could tie it in with my analog audio recordings. What kind of comparable quality can i expect if say i record the master off a reel to reel and record a video with a s-vhs camera and put them onto VHS?

Way back when I used to have a TEAC 3340 (still own it) and then a TSR8 I bought a HiFi VHS video to mix on to. My early one had a manual volume control and vU meters and I reckon it was the best for audio at the time, in fact I think audio recording was a sales pitch for this machine (can't remember the brand but I think it was a Phillips). I still have masters on VHS that play back fine on my later machines and sound really good. The only problem was if the tracking on the tape went out you would get a glitch now and then, this did not happen very often as long as the recorder recorded a stable black screen to tape along with the sound, my early machine had this as an automatic function.

The VHS was replaced when I bought my first DAT machine. Anyone remember these? I have 2 rack units and a portable, worth about $20 now ha ha.

Another thing we did with the VHS was record live gigs (stereo mix from desk) as you got 3 or 4 hours of tape for about $5. I also recorded radio shows that I want to hear but was not hope at the time by using the timer and leaving it plugged into a tuner.

Cheers

Alan.
 
Another thing we did with the VHS was record live gigs (stereo mix from desk) as you got 3 or 4 hours of tape for about $5.

I like this idea a lot, i got a top of the range Sharp VCR which was bought about a decade ago. I'm going to try this out at one of my gigs this weekend. We never play a gig less than about 3 hours and since my reel to reel recorders are all 15ips and not exactly portable, live gig recording has been out of the question. My cassette recorder is not bad but i dont want to be flipping the cassette over every 30min and if i can get comparable quality from a VCR, i would rather use the VCR.

The only problem was if the tracking on the tape went out you would get a glitch now and then, this did not happen very often as long as the recorder recorded a stable black screen to tape along with the sound, my early machine had this as an automatic function.

So i would need to record some video as well? I can't just plug in audio input and just record because of this glitch? How could i go about generating a black screen to tape if i don't have an automatic function for it on my VCR?
 
So i would need to record some video as well? I can't just plug in audio input and just record because of this glitch? How could i go about generating a black screen to tape if i don't have an automatic function for it on my VCR?

Give it a try, I am sure most machines would record a blank background of some kind if there is no picture input, come to think of it, if the audio input is switched to an aux, the picture must also be recording from the same aux. So if no picture is present it should record a blank screen. If the recorder was trying to record from a TV channel with no aerial the picture flickering would cause sound issues.

Give it a try from something like a CD player at home and see if it works OK. If the VCR has no way of adjusting the audio levels you may have to be careful with signal strength live, a healthy -10 bB line level should be the go, you may have to experiment with this a bit. Been a long time since I recorded audio to a VCR.

Cheers

Alan.
 
Lance, Mate

I am currently recording a classical pianist at one of Australia's biggest Universities (Monash) using valve mics and valve preamps to 24Bit 96Kbps digital. From this I am cutting DVD-A disc using discwelder. All good.

I also run a second recording which uses a Sony stereo mic, an Elliot low noise two transistor preamp and a Cowon iAudio6 mp3 player line-in @ 128kbps A2D.

My DVD-A's are excellent and very happy. But I could run the Sony and low level noise preamp into a VCR.

I may give it a go.
 
Is the audio tracked using a separate stationary head in a VCR or is it tracked via the helical scan head?
 
Is the audio tracked using a separate stationary head in a VCR or is it tracked via the helical scan head?
IIRC the HiFi audio track is frequency-modulated and recorded via the rotary head. The stationary heads will give you pretty lousy quality.
Looking at wikipedia the HiFi information is encoded sufficiently close to the video that there can be crosstalk between them. That would certainly explain the "Need a stable video signal" business alluded to earlier. Also, they appear to use companded noise reduction.
 
unless there is a dedicated volume knob for input volume/level, or there is some line input level adjuster in the VCR menu, you pretty much have to just use external volume control...
I will be using a mixer and yeah i thought about this problem and sort of decided in my head i would play around with the levels but if i dont have time ill play it safe and just send out a -10dB peak signal to the VCR.
 
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