Analog Mixer with Firebox question - How to Dub?

[RasLion]

Greetings,

Right now I am recording multi-tracks just fine using my firebox alone but I want to take it to a new level.

I am wanting to create dub music in REAL TIME using a mixer and some effects but my head spins when I think about what I will need to make this happen.

Check out the following clip of Victor Rice dubbing live: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KQRzKYKsUE

You can see how he has each instrument on its own track and with the mixer he can fade each track in and out and modify the effect(s) straight from the mixer. He is using a reel to reel but just replace that with my PC

I am limited to 4 channels I/O with the firebox so hopefully that will be enough for me to start with. I am thinking 1 channel each for vox, guitar, hi hats and snare.

So I have been looking at an Alesis Multitrack as an all-in-one solution or should I just maybe pick up a regular mixer... I dunno.

Then how do I get effects hooked up to the mixer where I can control the effect variables through the mixer's knobs? For example, delay... changing the delay time for ONE channel only from 200ms to 400ms on the fly using one of the mixer knobs on that channel....

Then how would I hook up the mixer to the firebox?? Do I just send the 4 outputs of the firebox to 4 inputs of the mixer... then send it back to the fireboxes inputs?

Will the firebox handle something like that?

If someone could answer these questions it would be GREATLY appreciated! Thanks in Advanced!

 

[ssscientist]

I am limited to 4 channels I/O with the firebox

The music is all in the computer already --- all you need to do is create a live dub mix of the individual tracks.

The Firebox has 6 analog plus 2 spdif outputs for a total of 8, not 4. The Firebox and the right board will let you get 6 tracks out of your computer - vocals, keyboards, guitar, bass and stereo drums - and with the right outboard gear you will be able to get a very convincing dub mix going.

The secret to all dub mixes is setting up a PRE FADER send to a delay unit. Ideally you need more than one delay unit and more than one pre fader send, but many spectatular 70's dub plates were made with just a Space Echo and a board with one pre fader send.

I keep emphasizing PRE fader because effects sends are usually post fader, and most lower line mixers only have one pre fader aux. If you can find a mixer with at least 2 pre fader sends, then you can send keyboards, vocals and guitars into the delay units and, after a little practice, you can be ready to open for Victor Rice.


.

 

[RasLion]

The music is all in the computer already --- all you need to do is create a live dub mix of the individual tracks.
.

Exactly.

The Firebox has 6 analog plus 2 spdif outputs for a total of 8, not 4. The Firebox and the right board will let you get 6 tracks out of your computer - vocals, keyboards, guitar, bass and stereo drums - and with the right outboard gear you will be able to get a very convincing dub mix going.
.

Yes you are right I stand corrected... 6 analog outputs.

The secret to all dub mixes is setting up a PRE FADER send to a delay unit. Ideally you need more than one delay unit and more than one pre fader send, but many spectatular 70's dub plates were made with just a Space Echo and a board with one pre fader send.
.

Ok now I am lost. I have to admit I am a complete noob when it comes to mixers as I've never really worked in detail with them. I am having a hard time understanding in laymans terms what a PRE FADER is. I found this website that tries to explain pre/post aux sends but I am still a bit confused.. http://www.soundinstitute.com/article_detail.cfm/ID/119

I keep emphasizing PRE fader because effects sends are usually post fader, and most lower line mixers only have one pre fader aux. If you can find a mixer with at least 2 pre fader sends, then you can send keyboards, vocals and guitars into the delay units and, after a little practice, you can be ready to open for Victor Rice.
.

Ok so if you look at this board: http://www.mackie.com/home/showimage.html?u=/products/1604vlzpro/images/ZOOMED_1604.jpg
it looks like it has two sets of aux sends per channel. Is each "set" a pre/post aux send? So this board has two pre-faders per channel?

Sorry I am lost... I guess because I dont know what exactly a pre fader is/does I am not sure why I need two

Is it so I can have more than 2 delay units for different effect variables? Or Is this the only way I can run delay on two tracks simulatenously?

I really appreciate you spending the time to share your knowledge thank you! With a name like scientist you must know what you are doing when it comes to mixing

 

[ssscientist]

I am having a hard time understanding in laymans terms what a PRE FADER is.

A pre fader send takes whatever signal (guitar, keyboards, etc) is coming into a single channel and allows you to send it to an effects device without affecting the level in the main mix. That's how there can be no guitar at all in a dub mix, but suddenly you hear it thru the delay --- 'BANK, Bank, bank, bank, bank'. That's from the Mixer (the person, not the device) turning up the aux send that feeds a delay and then turning it down quickly while leaving the fader down. And that's just one simple trick you can do.

Post fader sends are for when you want to combine the single channel signal with something else - like putting reverb on a snare or chorus on a guitar. They, simplistically stated, add the effect to the dry sound according to where the rotary knob is placed

So this board has two pre-faders per channel?

It does. And that makes it a good candidate for doing dub mixes.

Is it so I can have more than 2 delay units for different effect variables?

Yes. I should have made that clear. Or a delay and a spring reverb. Or a delay and a digital reverb set for a big, hard sound.

With a name like scientist you must know what you are doing when it comes to mixing

There was a brilliant dub mixer in the 70's and 80's called Scientist. One of my drunk friends called me 'ssscientist' after hearing me do a mix one night. I've always been kind of embarrassed that that name has stuck to me because I'm not a patch on Scientist's ass when it comes to dub stuff. But I have studied the mechanics and ballistics enough to know how to put together a convincing mix.


.

 

[RasLion]

A pre fader send takes whatever signal (guitar, keyboards, etc) is coming into a single channel and allows you to send it to an effects device without affecting the level in the main mix. That's how there can be no guitar at all in a dub mix, but suddenly you hear it thru the delay --- 'BANK, Bank, bank, bank, bank'. That's from the Mixer (the person, not the device) turning up the aux send that feeds a delay and then turning it down quickly while leaving the fader down. And that's just one simple trick you can do.
.

Haha I love how you described the rythm guitar... verry funny because its so on point. All very well put wording.

Post fader sends are for when you want to combine the single channel signal with something else - like putting reverb on a snare or chorus on a guitar. They, simplistically stated, add the effect to the dry sound according to where the rotary knob is placed
.

I understand perfectly now thank you!

It does. And that makes it a good candidate for doing dub mixes.
.

Are there any boards or brands you would recommend me? From what I've heard most people think highly of mackie.

There was a brilliant dub mixer in the 70's and 80's called Scientist. One of my drunk friend called me 'ssscientist' after hearing me do a mix one night. I've always been kind of embarrassed that that name has stuck to me because I'm not a patch on Scientist's ass when it comes to dub stuff. But I have studied the mechanics and ballistics enough to know how to put together a convincing mix.
.

Yes I am very well aware of Scientist that is why I mentioned that. I've also heard reggae artists refer to the live mixer as "Scientist" as a general terminology. I'm huge fans of all those dub mixers... King Tubby, Prince Jammy, Mikey Dread and the latest phenom Ryan Moore from Twilight Circus Dub Sound System.

Right now I've taught myself bass, guitar, and drums and am good enough at each to put down some really solid reggae riddims I've always been a staunch old skool reggae sound person so I wanted (most) everything to be analog and live sounding. I cant stand the loop stuff people do in Reason.

The way I was making dub before was to actually sift through a wav file of a single track, delete parts out, then add delay/reverb/etc to the remaining parts. A very daunting task and you can't "feel" the mix.

Thanks for all your help man... I'll have to send you my first mix... All live, all analog, and including vocals ... you wont be disappointed

 

[Bulls Hit]

A control surface might be a better option than a mixer for what you want to do. Tascam, M-audio, Novation etc all make controllers that drive the s/w consoles in all popular sequencers. Also programs like Abelton Live and Cakewalk Project 5 are tailor made for that kind of dub, loop production