All Recording Software Alike?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Rick Shepherd
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i think the only way to be sure would be to insert a "bitscope" from the a/d output and check the result on the hard disk. this would be especially important to know if going from 24-bit ADC to a 16-bit file where most likely dithering or truncation will be involved.
 
gullfo said:
i think the only way to be sure would be to insert a "bitscope" from the a/d output and check the result on the hard disk. this would be especially important to know if going from 24-bit ADC to a 16-bit file where most likely dithering or truncation will be involved.

Well, yes, conversion of different sample rates or bit depths, and the associated dithering will obviously cause software algorithms to come into play. However, I should think that, at least in the context of this comparison, there is no such conversion taking place and that we are talking about recording at the rates we will be storing the tracks in.
 
its pretty much like anything else - you should check your recording chain to ensure the integrity of the audio - in this case - make sure you're settings are consistent: 24bit convert to 24bit DAW to 24bit file on hard disk. of course many applications use 32bit internally so presumably they only pad it with zeros and truncate on the output, but that may depend on your dithering settings and the algorithm the developers thought made the most sense. -- best bet -- check it...

i think some folks make free "bitscope" plugins and standalone tools for checking and some free tone generators for feeding the input. because of LSB toggling, it may not be reliable to simply feed a WAV file and perform a null compare to determine the accuracy of the transcription...
 
I think the discussion of any DAW's summing architecture applies most directly during the mixdown stage as opposed to the recording or playback stage.

This issue was kicked around, (and still is), on the Cakewalk forum for ages and ages -- then Cakewalk shipped Sonar v3, (and I know Dachay still won't believe me, but.....), there was a quantifiable difference in the sound produced by the same mix when bounced out of Sonar v2.2 compared to v3.xx. I had a thread kicking on around here at the time where I posted clips of two mixes -- one out of Sonar v2.2, the other from v3.0 (both still sucked, mind you) -- but they did sound different and wouldn't null to zero when re-imported them into a new Sonar track and flipped the phase on one of 'em.

Therefore, something HAD TO BE different in the audio engine.

(Actually, to give credit where it is due, Dachay actually pointed out that while there may be a perceptible 'difference' in the sound, it didn't necessarily equate to 'better'....)

Anyway => Sonar v3 shipped with a shiny new audio engine -- as touted by the marketing folks -- but plenty of folks on the Cakewalk forum were still complaining that "my mix sounds clearer/different/betterer/more-sooper-dooper-unrealer etc. in Cubase". Ron Kuper, the lead dev. genius for Sonar got on and posted saying that the explanation was to be found not in the summing algorithms of DAWs, but in the way 'pan law' was applied between the different applications.

When Sonar v4 shipped one of the touted features was 'configurable pan law' -- that is, you could specify different approaches for the amount by which any track's level was adjusted according to where it was panned in the stereo field. The bakers at Cakewalk maintained this was the explanation for any perceived differences between different DAW engines. Ron K. went to extreme lengths in numerous threads -- particularly with some dude called 'shea' -- to address these issues scientifically and to demonstrate these assumptions with fact against the S4 engine.

It was never explicitly stated, (that I saw), but Ron K. did seem to imply on a couple of occassions that there were some underlying structural changes to the audio engine of Sonar v4 compared to v3 which may have aided this cause... Ultimately, I don't know...

Anyway, the consensus of those threads seemed to be that if you do a mix in any DAW, then do another mix in Sonar using exactly the same pan law and FX set, re-import them both into new tracks in any DAW, flip the phase on one and play them back -- THEY WILL NULL TO ZERO. This means they are EXACTLY THE SAME.

Game over - end of the "DAW Wars", right there.

...

If you want to waste more time, then there is the 'Awesome DAWSum' experiment on another reputable BBS -- here you get a CD full of the same mix with the same settings all exported from a bunch of different DAWs, (you will have to shell out $$ for the CD - no download). Again, any meaningful analysis of their forum will quickly prove that once again, like arseholes, every person has an opinion and most of them stink... ;) No-one agrees on anything and personal preference and individual bias rules all...

The ultimate bottom line is this -

Don't waste time worrying about your sequencer software. Choose one. Record some damn music. Arrange it. Edit it. Learn from the tool in front of you and the community resources from which you can draw knowledge. Learn... Grow.

Repeat...


Ultimately, your art -- be it music or engineering -- is more important than the tool you choose to use.




...and above all - have fun!

:) Q.
 
This deserves repeating. :D :D

Qwerty said:
Don't waste time worrying about your sequencer software. Choose one. Record some damn music. Arrange it. Edit it. Learn from the tool in front of you and the community resources from which you can draw knowledge. Learn... Grow.
 
I have enjoyed reading this thread, as it has maintained the topic of discussion throughout and I will not accept that it has come to a conclusion.

ps. the OP did specifically state "Do different software give different recording qualities" and Dach did a masterful job of bringing that point home.

pss. damn you QWERTY. you are a jack-booted thug. :)

psss. this thread will have people thinking that they can buy some $29.99 piece of recording software from Staples and get the same mix they would get from Sonar.
 
Parts of this thread reminds me of the urban legend relating to putting audio CD's in your freezer overnight, defrosting them the next day because it "apparently" makes them sound "better" :eek:

I think Qwerty's advice hit the nail on the head...or several actually ;)

:)
 
Paul881 said:
Parts of this thread ...
Obviously those were the parts I didn't participate in. :D

And just for the record, you don't freeze them, you mark on them with a green felt marker. :rolleyes:
 
dachay2tnr said:
And just for the record, you don't freeze them, you mark on them with a green felt marker. :rolleyes:

Oh, really!!!! :eek: Thats where I've been going wrong then :o

Question - will a red felt marker have the same effect? And what shade of color? Dark? Light? Medium? And can you suggest a particular brand?

Thats what I like about this forum - there's so much talent and experience :D
 
When you get lil scratches on a very important green or red marked cd, you can lay it on the bathroom counter and move a hairdryer in circular motion on it about 4 inches away. It gets real shiny as the scratches go away. Sometimes the data goes too, but hey, discovery is everything huh? :)
 
Toki987 said:
When you get lil scratches on a very important green or red marked cd, you can lay it on the bathroom counter and move a hairdryer in circular motion on it about 4 inches away. It gets real shiny as the scratches go away. Sometimes the data goes too, but hey, discovery is everything huh? :)

Bloody hell - you learn more and more each and every day here :) Thanks Toki.

Does it matter if the circles that you move the hairdrier in is clockwise or anti-clockwise? And does it matter if you are therefore in the northern hemisphere or the southern hemisphere?
 
Paul881 said:
Bloody hell - you learn more and more each and every day here :) Thanks Toki.

Does it matter if the circles that you move the hairdrier in is clockwise or anti-clockwise? And does it matter if you are therefore in the northern hemisphere or the southern hemisphere?

I'm thinking that it doesnt really matter which direction you move the dryer. The cd`s are mostly self correcting in that as you cross the equator they'll slow down and change spin direction in the basket unless your on a train going fast n stuff. ;)
 
I'm colorblind so I've found that plain ol' black markers do the trick for me.
 
acidrock said:
I'm colorblind so I've found that plain ol' black markers do the trick for me.
I've heard your stuff, so I'm not surprised. :D
 
Toki987 said:
I'm thinking that it doesnt really matter which direction you move the dryer. The cd`s are mostly self correcting in that as you cross the equator they'll slow down and change spin direction in the basket unless your on a train going fast n stuff. ;)

Oh, okay, I'll avoid trains than ;)

Thanks Toki :)
 
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