All in One or Old Fashioned??

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JesusFreak

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Hello Everyone,

This is my first post and I am just starting out in the recording world so please forgive my ignorance and lack of knowledge in this area.

My main issue is this: I have a Christian band and we play alternative type of music. Basic setup with a two guitars, bass guitar, drums and myself and another doing vocals. I am planning on converting my garage into our studio. It is a 19x19 room. I know I have alot to learn about sound proofing and stuff but I'll save that for another time. Basically I want to know if I can get a REALLY good sound from one of these all in one digital recorders or should I go with the separate mixer, recorder, etc..?

I plan on getting a pair of really good condenser mics so we get a good vocal sound, but other than that, I don't know what else to do. Any insight in this question would be appreciated. Also, you all wouldn't happen to have a schematic on how to or what to hook up in a studio would you?? (ie, mics go to mixer, mixer to recorder....or head bone connected to the neck bone type of stuff)

Anything will help. And again, forgive my lack of knowledge or poor terms I use.

God Bless!
 
Welcome to the board :)

I hope you're prepared for a ride and don't get offended too easily. Take things here lightly and you'll be just fine :rolleyes:

I've never used any of the all in one Hard Disk Recorders before, but for less cost you can probably build a good DAW. There's lots of good advice about this in the computers and souncards forum, do a search there. :)
 
I like the all-in-ones

Especially for band recordings, because they are portable. You can record lots of sources at once, and have flexible control over each track right away.

A PC/Mac setup might be cheaper, but is more difficult to set up in many cases, and does not offer the flexibility.

Personally, I use a hybrid setup. I do my acquistion and basic mixdown on my Korg D1600 16 track. I then take the raw stereo mixdown and do my mastering/post production stuff in my PC using T-Racks and also Cool Edit Pro, with Waves and Steinberg plugins.

Best of luck, you're embarking on a difficult, but ultimately rewarding journey!!!

Cheers!
Phil "Llarion: The Jazzinator" Traynor
www.llarion.com
 
Thanks you guys for your time and help with this. I just find myself so inundated with information that I seem to be spinning in circles. I have been checking out the Korg D1600. Do you seem happy with it?? How many simultaneous tracks can you record??

If you all think of anything else that would be helpful, please dont hesitate to let me know.

God Bless!
 
...just a quick note... The PC Route is definitely more complicated and more difficult to setup, but it offers much MORE flexibility, not less (with the exception of portability). A $450 audio card (Delta 1010, C-Port, etc... record 8 tracks at once, expandable to 32) and some software can turn a fairly capable PC into a very powerful studio (at least, considerably more powerful than a standalone).

I'm not knocking standalones - they're easier to get setup, the learning curve is much lower, and they're portable, but I'll never give up the flexibility I have in a PC studio. It's not for everybody, but it's worth a bit of investigation to see if it's right for you.
 
Ditto with Seanmorse - a DAW setup gives you much more flexibility for about the same cash. Assuming that you are somewhat computer literate that is what I would recomend.
 
How many tracks?

With the D1600, at 16/44.1, you can do 8 simultaneous... I never do more than two, because I'm a solo.

I LOVE the thing... Just LOVE it.
 
With my C-Port, I get 8 simultaneous at 24/96, and it's uncompressed :p neener, neener :D

...just ribbin ya. That's cool about the Korg though. I've worked with a friend's Roland VS-1680, and it's nice to work with too - excellent sound quality, and very good built-in effects (you need a good mic pre, though). He's turned out some incredible sounding stuff with it.
 
D1600

Yeah, the crop of digital soundcards lately is really amazing... When I said that the AIWs have more flexibility, I referred mostly to included onboard effect (I can run 11 simultaneous) and the portability aspect.

The PC-based setups are certainly more versatile in their fixed location. It's too bad that nobody yet has a notebook with a fast enough I/O bus and a good enough PC card high end soundcard/input scenario to support really robust recording, that could really put a dent in the AIW market.

I suspect Apple will be the first on that part, now that they've acquired Logic...

Decisions, decisions... We're just NOT making this easier on the poor guy, are we?!? :D
 
...probably not :) Information overload can be destructive. Hopefully, we're providing some insight to help the decision (and if not, we're just being rude and hi-jacking his thread :) . You can jump in here anytime, JesusFreak. We're here for ya. We're just havin' a *DC* talk about the differences :)

11 simultaneous is pretty impressive for a standalone - I don't think the Roland could do that many. With the PC, you're usually limited by the speed of your CPU. I can get up to 4 track insert effects (plus paragraphic EQ) for each track, plus 6 main bus effects. My CPU usually starts to choke when I've got about 15-20 going at once (depending on how intense the effects are, sometimes less). That's with a lowly cheap-o 433mhz PC. That'll change when my 2ghz gets here.

I'm a bit of a gear-head/tweak-head, so this is why the PC is the best choice for me. It does take much of my time (which is limited) to plan and upgrade and tweak, but then I can get exactly what I want, and it allows my wishy-washy brain to change it's mind from time to time.
 
Cool reference to DC Talk....they got cool music though.....anyone...you talk about information overload but really, I think that is what I need about this....I want to know that I have the most information possible BEFORE I make my decision...I have read so many posts about people that have bought gear that they havent' been happy with...and I'm sure that will happen with some stuff, but I'd prefer it not happen with my most expensive piece of hardware :).

The only thing that I saw with the PC based stuff (and I'm a software tech so I know PC's) is that it seemed like there was a LOT of stuff that you had to buy before you could really begin recording. I'm probably wrong since I don't know anything about this stuff, but when I spoke with a local rep about some of this stuff, he just kept saying and you need this and this and this..(you get the picture). I know you can't trust these guys on everything but he seemed to know what he was talking about. Anyway, the AIW's seemed to be buy this, buy some good mic's and cables and go for it....Just an observation..please let me know if I'm wrong...

One last note, could you guys happen to tell me what the hookup process would be for a basic system. I don't mean specific models or anything, just like: start with mic, go to pre-amp, then to compressor..etc....I seem to process info better when I have a good visual.

Thanks a ton guys for your info.....keep it coming!! :-)

God Bless!
 
The thing about PC based audio card setups is that most of them (with a few exceptions like the Aardvark Q-10) don't have built-in mic preamps. So, to get around this on multi-input setups, most people (like me) use a mixer with channel inserts.

My setup is:

12 channel mixer -> C-Port (multi-input card w/ breakout box)

The only effect I ever track with is compression, so I have a 2 channel compressor wired between the mixer and sound card on channels 3 & 4 (I move it around if / when I have to).

I then, run the output of my sound card to a 3 position speaker selecter (Radio Schmack) and route to (A) studio monitors, (B) home stereo, and (C) back into the mixer for direct monitoring.

That's pretty much it - nothing fancy for me (yet). Most of my recording gear is fairly inexpensive: (Not counting software, mics, cables, etc...)

C-Port - $400
Mixer - $125 (ebay steal)
Switch ($30)
Monitors ($199)
Compressor ($149)
 
My studio setup is no diamond. I go from a Yamaha 12 track mixer to the Delta 1010. This outputs to my monitors (and PA for live stuff). I already had the analog setup before I built my DAW so the machine just slid right in to replace the Tscam 4 track I used to record with. You r particular setup will of course depend on the components and goal, but it can be pretty basic. I just think of my DAW as a really cool multitrack tape deck when I get overwhelmed with technicalities ;)

BTW I looked pretty hard at soundcards and hard disk recorders before I decided to go with building a DAW. RME has a Multiface with a laptop connection. I don't know if anyone has tried it out yet, but I was considering it before I found my Delta 1010. Can you hook up to a fat enough laptop to have a proper multitracking setup?
 
As Llarion said, the speed of the I/O bus just isn't there yet (at least not that I've seen). I remember seeing the MOTU firewire (8 in, 8 out) setup, and thought that would be a great idea, but I've heard of all kinds of problems trying to record all 8 at once. I'm not an expert, but I don't think Firewire can handle that much data transfer consistently. And, being that laptops don't accept PCI cards, we're left with workstations.

There are good "portable" setups that I've seen though - rackmount PC cases and the like. If you want to bad enough, you could make it work. For me, I like my studio where it's at - in my basement :)
 
You will get a really good sound from the Korg d1600. But if you're gonna get really good condenser mics, you will also need a really good mic preamp and a really good compressor to get the best sound from your mics. Get ready to spend all your money! It is inevitable. Might want to get a really good little mixer to mix your drums down with if you want to record everything live. And you'll need a good headphone amp with enough outputs for the band and some good phones for all the musicians that don't bleed much. As soon as you start mixing, you'll have to have some good reference monitors. What great fun! Good luck.
 
Thanks to everyone for your reply's!!!

I've really enjoyed listening to everyone's input on this subject. Please continue to let me know anything that you guys see as helpfull.

About the Korg D1600. I thought that it had a mixer on board and I also thought that when using condensor mics, that if you had a board with phantom power on it, that it would be enough. (that's what I get for thinking). Please let me know the reason for the mic preamps and the compressor. I will definately buy them if I need them, I just like to know what they are doing for me.....:), again my ignorance in this area is showing...hehe.

As always, your guys advice is invaluable. Thanks agian!!

God Bless!
 
D1600

The D1600 does have a mixer, and switchable phantom power on the 1st 4 channels (the ones with XLR inputs). The analog tube compressor is a near-essential to capture the transparent warmth of a good condenser microphone, and also to warm up other signal types. The mixer is not really necessary, I just use it as a convenience because I have so many things to switch around...
 
Thanks for the reply,

So if I need a good mic pre-amp, does anyone have one that they recommend?? Our band has two vocalist. We also plan on mic'ing the amplifiers that we have for the guitarist...unless there is a better way to do it....

Also, is there a difference between a compressor and a pre-amp and if there is....what is it??

Thanks all!!

God Bless!
 
You have come to the right place; many people here will have a lot to say about what you are asking. Most will have more experience than me.

I've been doing what you want to do for about 6 months now.

I have a Praise Team that meets in my Garage to practice and we have started recording a few things. I've got 4 Audix Dynamics, an AT Condenser, an external set of Pre-Amps and Compressors, and I went the PC route.

I would think that if someone is computer literate, they should lean towards the PC route.

The portability part can be fixed with a rack-mount PC case in a standard 19" portable rack that also houses any pre-amps, compressors, effects, and patch bays you get. I have a rack case that I'm planning on building up.

The biggest plus for PC for me was its cost to ability ratio and ability to upgrade. I had most of the parts lying around. Many things can be downloaded free or try before you buy type demos. The beginner level software is not very expensive. You can upgrade software as it and you improve. You can add capabilities as your studio grows. You can use the PC to burn CD's and email MP3s.

I'm getting off your questions... Here is my opinion to some things:

Mic and Pre:

Many people are going to give you many answers. Some might even think no pre is good until you spend $2000 and no mic is good unless it's maid in Germany and cost $800+. My opinion, you have to find the mic and pre combo that work for you and the other singer's voice and the sound you like. At this point, you probably don't know where to start. Do you have a place you can demo these type of things. For me, I don't think it's wise for me to buy a very expensive mic and pre set until I know what I want. So, I decided to get entry-level stuff that I can use for a while until I start to learn the basics of what things like proximity effect, tube coloration, presence hype, and compression sound like. So this is what I did for vocals, I bought what was described as a fairly neutral mic (AT3035 $150) because other mics that have "character" require knowing what type of character you like and what type you don’t. I bought a 2-channel pre (BlueTube $100) used. It's not the best but I am having a good time learning with it. I can send my mic and my bass guitar to it at the same time and it does a great job for me. I also got the Presonus Blue Max Compressor for 2 reasons. It matches my BlueTube and is made to share a rack space with it. Also, it has presets that say things like Vocal 1, Vocal 2, Fretted, etc. that where designed by the manufacturer that I can use until I learn how to do my own settings. My 1 step up in all this will be a new mic (after I learn my voice and what I want), a new pre on the level of the RNP or the new studio project pre (I mention these because they are <$500 (SP is <$200) and have a lot of people talking). And I will probably get a RNC (compressor) because it is said to be the best compressor for the $ and if I get the RNP it would mate up like my BlueTube and Blue Max do. Bottom line is that Mic and Pre are mostly personal preference and you can't know until you try, so I'd say get in cheep at first while you develop your taste and know what you want and then you can invest more in future gear that will be "keepers" when you know what you want to keep.

I got the Roland Studio Pac ($599). It is a digital mixer board / 8 channel in and out PC Interface Card / Recording Software Package. It was a good bet for me because it's like a mix between an all-in-one, a DAW, and a stand-alone mixer. I can use just the mixer part without even turning on the PC for practices. The 8 channels of simultaneous recording is enough for me. The most I have used is 5 at a time for a drum kit and it worked great even on a relatively old (400Mhz AMD) PC.

One thing that I would be interested to hear (read) comments on is acoustics. You mentioned recording you amps. I know that it standard in studios but they have rums that acoustically work for this. I prefer to run my Bass direct or use my effect box to act as the "amp" sound. I know that there are POD type boxes for guitars also and I've read good comments about them. They would eliminate acoustics, mic selection, mic placement, preamp, etc. from the equation. I know that I have been experimenting with using a bathroom to record vocals because the garage is too big a space. That became obvious as soon as I moved to the condenser mic (picks up more of the room noise).

If you do mic the guitars, think about Shure SM57s. I don't own any so take my word at that, but if you don't already know this mic, write it down. Hundreds of people on this board have them and will tell you why they are the most useful $75 studio mic. I seem to read that at least once or twice a week. I will have some soon. So far my set of Audix OM-2s are filling the bill until I have extra cash to burn or see a price that I can't resist for a set of SM57s.

Phantom Power: Some mics need them (Condenser) some don't (Dynamic). Some things can be damaged if phantom power is on while they are plugged in. This is important because often low cost mixers provide phantom power in an all or none fashion. That means either all the mic inputs have phantom power on or none of them have it. So, if you are going to be running a mix of dynamic and condensers at the same time (like when micing drums or some multi-mic acoustic guitar setups), you need separate pre-amps, phantom-blocker type circuits, or stand-alone phantom power supplies. Both my Roland mixer and my BlueTube ether provide Phantom Power to both mic inputs or none.

Compressor:

First, difference between a pre and a compressor: A microphone produces a tiny weenie little signal, the pre-amp amplifies it to line-level signal. When the signal is tiny weenie, it is very susceptible to noise because it is so small that even the smallest interference is comparable in size. So, it's best to pre-amplify the sound as close to the mic as possible. There are many more aspects involved in mic preamps but this gives you the basic idea.

The compressor is quite different form a pre and a little more difficult to explain. Basically it takes a signal that has quiet and loud parts and makes the loud parts a little quieter. Have you ever watched a movie at night while others where sleeping? You got the quiet parts that you have to turn up to hear and the loud parts you have to turn down to avoid waking the house. The difference between the quiet and loud parts is the (amplitude) Dynamics of the audio track. A Dynamic Compressor brings the quiet and loud part's closer together. This is useful for sources that get quieter and louder as they perform, like voices. You usually want the voices to have relatively the same volume in comparison to the rest of the song so that you can still hear it when the singer is singing the 'airy' parts and it's not obnoxious when he/she is belting it out or hits that resonate note for their voice. It makes it easier to record when it's a little bit compressed because you usually want to record a track with as much signal as possible without clipping. A limiter is also used for this. It's like a compressor but it dramatically stops the volume from going over a set level. Your compressor settings can dramatically effect how the recording sounds. That's why I got one with the presets and not as much flexibility, while I learn.


Signal Chain:

First thing the mic goes too is the Mic Preamp as I alluded to above. When recording you don't want much else but it could go like this if you wanted all of this: Mic-Pre-Noise Gate-EQ-Compressor (or compress then eq)-DeEsser (takes the exaggerated [ess] sounds out-(mixer-interface-recorder).

You can get 'channel strips that include all the stuff from the mic pre to the de-esser. I bought the Antaries Vocal Producer ($417) and took it back because I decided that that money was better spent on just a Mic and a Preamp for me at this point of the game. There are cheaper channel strips (Behringer Ultra-Voice $125) that could be used to learn on. I've heard some say that piece is great and others say that it is noisy. But, at that price it's a cheep way to learn about Mic-Pre, Tube Saturation, Compression, Enhancement, EQ, and De-Essing in one box. It's probably not the best at any of these things but until you know where you want to spend the bid bucks, it might be an option. The other way to learn about this stuff is how I'm doing it. I got a cheep Mic Preamp and I'm learning the rest in software. Most of the recording software comes with soft versions of all this stuff that you can tweak on while you learn what it does. Most of it even has presets to get you to a starting point.

My signal Chain:

Mic-Preamp-compressor-Roland VS3100pro (Analog to Digital happens in here)-Roland PCI Card in PC-PC Hard Drive.

I plug the Bass into the Preamp and record it the same way.

Guitar-Effects Box-Roland VS3100Pro-Ect.


Mic: I'm one of the least experienced here so I'll just try and share what I've learned in my reading and talking to those who know more. Rule Number One: Mics are a very personal preference. Rule Number Two: SM57 is the most versatile, cheep, studio mic.

I use my dynamic mics on each drum and the condenser as an overhead. I don't get pro results. But I don't get pro results on anything yet. I think it would be unreasonable to expect that and based on your questions, you’re in the same place as me. I'm in learning mode. I read that the SM57 is the standard Snare Drum Mic. There are also mics just for kick drums. There are large diaphragm Condenser mics that can do voice and Kick Drums (B.L.U.E. Baby Bottle) and there are small diaphragm Condensers that I read to be more suitable to overhead use than large (more sensitive to transients).

As far as the part about a lot to buy with a DAW... If you compare All In One, DAW, and Discrete Units (one item for each function) the DAW fares nicely. If you are only interested in what the all-in-one provides and nothing else, that would be the one stop solution. But (big but), you will likely want other things like pre-amps, compression, effects, the list goes on forever. When it comes to a DAW, you 'could' go a simple as having one unit that is the mic-pre and interface then all the compressors, gates, effects, etc can be software based. Any of the full feature software packages include most of this stuff. Great thing is that if you have say one software compressor, as long as your PC is capable, you can have separate compressors running on as many channels as you need at the same time. If you where hardware compressing, you would need one for every channel.

Personally, I think you could get by with an 8 channel DAW system (lets you learn inside the software where you should feel comfortable), a nice but entry level mic pre for recording vocals (<$200), a vocal mic that both singers like, maybe a simple compressor (one like mine for ease or RMC to grow into), and enough mics to capture your drum set with at least one that can be used on a guitar cab. My mixer only has 2 XLR type plugs for mics but it has basic mic-pres on 8 inputs. With the right cables, I can hook up as many as 8 mics for things like drums and do an okay job without separate preamps and compressors for each channel (that can come later).

There is many ways to spend more money than anyone has. If you keep simple for now but allow a path for upgrade, you'll be recording soon but not replacing the whole shebang in 6 months. That is where I see the PC solution working out for a PC savvy person such as you.

Hope I've helped.

God Bless You Too,
 
The preamps in the d1600 may be much better than in the Korg D8 that I have. But I doubt that they're that much better. I noticed a great improvement in my sound when I started using outboard preamps ( on my mixer ). If you are going to use high-end condenser mics, I don't think the inboard d1600 amps will do them justice. A good mixer ( Soundcraft, Mackie,etc ) will have pretty good mic preamps or you can get a good standalone unit. I mentioned the mixer only because you mentioned enough inputs to exceed the 8 on the d1600. You could mix the drums down from 4 or 5 mics to a stereo output and only take two inputs for the recorder. If your vocals are very dynamic - you're gonna yell - you have loud, soft, loud, soft parts - you will need a compressor to even out your signal and prevent clipping. Probably a necessity with condenser mics. I have a Presonus Blue Max but you would probably be better served by a RNC compressor. You really don't want any clipping! There are some good all-in-one boxes that have mic preamps, compressors, eq, tube sounds, etc.
 
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