All in 1 Workstations

[ikabodd]

Hi there. I'm thinking of purchasing an "all-in-1" workstation, and have narrowed it down to a few in my price range. Thought I'd post this poll to find out if anyone has owned 1 or a few of these machines and which one they prefer. Any feed back concerning ease of use, features, quiality of sound, etc. would be appreciated.

 

[tedluk]

See?! 100% for the DPS24! Wooohooo!!!

Seriously, I've been researching this for a while now and I am convinced that the DPS is the best unit out there right now.

Right now, I'm using an AW2816 and though it's fine, I don't like the UI at all and Yamaha's support is pretty weak.

That coupled with the better pre's on the DPS, the 24 inputs, the increased recording capabilities, options, versatility, the great UI, etc., etc., make it an easy choice for me. Then there are the intangibles and I think they're maybe as important as anything. Akai has really, really excellent support. They listen to the users and implement their suggestions. There is a user forum that might be the best one I have ever participated in (no offense to anyone here). The people over there are knowledgable, helpful, honest and TRULY go out of their way to help people. Check it out HERE ( I hope that link works.)

The DPS also can do something I can't wait to try. Check THIS out!

I originally was thinking that the Korg was going to be the way to go, but now I can't wait to get my hands on the DPS!

Still these are all solid boxes and you can certainly get good results with any of them. But, I think you can tell which one I like! lol

Ted

 

[Mongoo]

I agree, I don't have one yet but will as soon as they come into stock. From everything I've looked at, and I've looked at all of those recorders, The DPS24 is better, if not much better.

+ there is a great DPS24 Community. Check out there forum at http://p206.ezboard.com/fdpsworldfrm3

Take Care

Mongoo

 

[ikabodd]

thanks for the replies and the great links! I've heard nothing but good things so far about the DPS. I guess this seals the deal. The only other one I was really leaing toward was the Korg. (32 tracks is nice). But, if the Akai is that good, it'll probably be my final pick. (Guess there wasn't much need for a poll.) Looks like it'll work great crossing over to the computer realm, but does anyone have any input on convenience of aux sends? I have alot of outboard gear I still want to use.

 

[tedluk]

Not having used it, I don't have direct knowledge, but I know it has 4 aux outs and direct inserts on channels 1-4. I also know that the routing is extremely flexible. You can route pretty much anything anywhere.

My suggestion would be to join the user's forum. Those guys are probably the nicest, most helpful people I've encountered anywhere. They keep that board focused and they really know their stuff. I don't know how many products you own that are as complex as one of these, but the level of support that is available is really important to me.

I'd also suggest that you download the manual and take the interactive tour on Akai's site.

Also, I know that even though the D32XD can record 32 tracks, it can't do it at 24 bit resolution. If I'm not mistaken, you also have to add the expansion card in order to record more than 8 tracks at once.

Another thing I like about the DPS24 is that I can connect almost everything I have to it at once. That's one place where most of the recorders are lacking.

Ted

 

[Michael Jones]

If you're set on an "All-in-one" box, I guess.... go ahead and get it, but in my opinion they are a technological dead end. Once you have it, that's all it will ever be.
I think your money's better spent on a nice DAW, outboard mixer, and pre-amps.

 

[tedluk]

If you're set on an "All-in-one" box, I guess.... go ahead and get it, but in my opinion they are a technological dead end. Once you have it, that's all it will ever be.
I think your money's better spent on a nice DAW, outboard mixer, and pre-amps.

What else does it need to be???

Seriously, if you build a DAW, you're going to need an interface, as you said, either a mixer or some kind of controller box and those are technological dead-ends as well. Soundcards go out of date. Processors get faster and systems have to be replaced to run the latest software. All hardware is a technological dead-end. Hard disk recorders run software just like a DAW does and it's upgradeable, just like the programs are in a DAW. The only difference I can see is that companies like Cakewalk and Steinberg are more likely to continue upgrading a given piece of software than a hardware manufaturer is. Still, software companies stop supporting programs all the time. Cakewalk dropped ProAudio when the SONAR series began, Logic dropped PC support when Apple bought them, etc.

As I've pointed out, budget allowing, the ultimate way to go is to have both! The DPS24 with the expansion board will allow you to transfer 24 tracks via ADAT. Using the Console application (it's not the only way, but it's economical), you'll have access to hundreds of plug-ins! There's a reason the guys who figured this out call it Frankenstein! It's a monster!!

Ted

 

[Michael Jones]

What else does it need to be???

Ted

Well, it wasn't long ago that 16 bit was the shits. Then 24 bit came out and blew that away, now we're looking at 32 bit, and moving towards higher resolution audio via DVD.
At the same time a 48k converter was state of the art, 96k walked up and smacked it, now resolutions are going even higher than that.

Its easier to upgrade components than it is an entire machine.
You can't upgrade the converters in an "All-in-one" box, or the pres, or the mixer.
Being carpmentalized, or componet-ized, you're not locked into any single element that can't be upgraded. The expansion possibilities are virtually limitless. Not so with an "All-in-one" box.

 

[Mongoo]

sure it is, just get a new all in one wonder, For $2,500 its a great deal for the times. Good outboard gear for a computer, I would imagine, would cost just as much if not more considering you are buying the lastest of latest technologies. Not to mention you have to wait for new media support/demand for that to ever become necissary. And besides things kick ass as it is now, upgrading won't be for 2 years min. I'd say with a DPS24 if you even need to at all, especially with frankenstien.

 

[ikabodd]

Great stuff. Is anyone out there using this frankenstein set up? I checked the web link and it looks good, but what are the big advantages to the dps/Console setup as opposed to linking it to, say, Cakewalk, Sonar, etc.?

 

[tedluk]

ikabod-

I think the main advantage of Console is that it's small, inexpensive and simple to work with, but you are correct, you could use anything to host the VST and DX effects. Also, this concept should work with any unit that has a way to send its tracks in/out digitally. But, AFAIK, no one has tried it so I can't make any claims as to how well it works with other boxes.

If you check the DPS24 forum, there are some songs posted there where the guys have used Frankenstein.

Michael-

As I said, ALL hardware is going to be a dead end. All your telling me is that you'd rather replace a bunch of things instead of one. I really don't see the advantage other than breaking up what will no doubt be a much larger purchase over a longer time.

Software is a dead end too, only it's usually not as expensive to replace.

Technology marches on and since we're all gear-heads we willingly spend our money on the latest and greatest. You like the DAW paradigm, I like the ease of a dedicated box. I have a DAW too so I see both products uses.

Fact of the matter is that there are still plenty of top notch producers and recording artists using analog tape. Good sound is good sound. It doesn't matter how you get it.

Ted

 

[jeffree]

Ted, your last point is absolutely huge, IMO. Good music is good music, and at some point all the newest little technological improvements don't mean that much for some of us home-recording types--if our music is the focus.

And for those of using using computers all day long at our day gigs, a dedicated stand-alone SIAB can be a breath of fresh air in the evenings. Add to that the ease of portability, and some folks (like me) are glad indeed that they didn't go the full-on computer route. Certainly, that approach has its advantages, too, but the disadvantages can be big for some folks. In the end, like with most musical decisions, it's a personal preference kind of thing.

As long as the goal remains good music and clear recordings, either approach works well. The hard part for me, though, beyond the musical writing and performance itself, is learning the complicated craft of engineering and producing. Fortunately, I have a lifetime ahead of me to learn (and I'll need all of it).

Best,

J.

 

[Michael Jones]

Ted - If you noticed I said in my first post; "In my opinion".
And that's all it was meant to be.
Its not my intention to disuade or persuade anyone towards one format or the other. I've had an "All-in-one" box before. So I'm just offering my first-hand opinion between the two.

I have a Yamaha O1V that I use as a mixer for my DAW.
Its a great little machine, but what it is now, and what it was 5 or 7 years ago, is all that it is, and was, ever going to be. I can't change the resolution of the faders. I can't upgrade the pre's or the convertors. It's still does what it did 5-7 years ago, but that's all its EVER going to do.

OTOH - I use Nuendo recording software, and have used it since ver. 1.0
I've watched it go through several technical updates, and a new version. Staying current has cost very little. And expandibility, with plug-ins and/or new features not only keeps it current, but exciting as well.

In my real life, I'm a civil engineer. Back in the day, when our calculators were powered by coal , we produced plans and drawings by hand.
Not long after that, VAX platforms introduced CAD systems that automated plan production. But those VAX systems were expensive, and proprietary. All they did was drive a cad system. And that's all they would ever do.
Sometime thereafter, a company called Autodesk introduced a CAD program for the PC. Suddenly VAX systems were obsolete, and you had not only CAD, but Word Processing, Spreadsheets, and a host of engineering software applications literally at your fingertips.
The old systems were a temporary solution at best, and in no way a long term goal.
Autodesk changed the way the industry did business.

Now, with DAW systems, not only do you have a multitrack recorder, but Surround Sound additions, mastering applications, emmulators, plugins, and a host of other audio engineering tools, as well as the potential to expand and upgrade.

An "All-in-one" box is a great way to step into home recording. But I liken it to the O1V and the old proprietary VAX systems.
No doubt the "All-in-one's" are great machines, and a user could do a lot with one, but I don't see them as long-term solutions.

 

[ikabodd]

I definately see both points in this discussion. I myself currently have a Pro Tools system that cost me around 5,000. It belonged to an engineer I was studying under, and he left the business and gave me a good price. As he made a good living on this rig ( definately good enough to retire from the music biz and live on his boat!), I can see the advantages of DAW in the "serious" sound design field.
Long story short, I bought all this equipment off of him in hopes of continuing my (still very green) engineering education. However, I've found that I'm first: a musician, a distant second: an engineer, and an even farther distant third: a computer wiz. This system, while filled to the brim with extras, capabilities, and general neat-o stuff, runs on an old mac os and an old version of Logic. The result is the learning curve on the computer end is just too high, and I think I, personally, would gladly "down grade", losing alot of features, but allowing me to regain some hands on, down and dirty, sound design experience. (Plus, nothing is more frustrating than trying to record yourself, worrying about the equipment settings, your own playing, and then realizing your hard drives need defragging.)
Which, I guess, leads to my conclusion... anyone wanna buy a protools rig so's I can get me a DPS?

 

[tedluk]

Michael-

I didn't think I took anything you said as anything other than your opinion. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. What I'm saying is MY opinion. But, of course, I'm right!!!

It seems like we're just saying the same things over and over.

To me, the ultimate system is having both a DAW and a hard disk recorder. With something like the DPS I have the front end I need with excellent mic pres, dynamics, good converters and a very good work surface with everything I need to track and mix. It has the ability to be used to control softsynths or a mix in SONAR need be and, through ADAT I should be able toget everything into SONAR or any other app for tweaking or editing. I'm not losing anything by using it, but I gain a lot of functionality.

Also, I think for a lot of people just starting out that there's a stigma attached to using an all-in-one that somehow they're not really serious tools. For a lot of units that might be true, but there are a few on the high end that are certainly capable of producing excellent results. I think a lot of people might feel they're being, if not forced, pushed in the direction of computer recording and with it a high level of frustration and a steep learning curve. Setting up a DAW, tweaking it, getting all the components to work together can be a daunting task. One only needs to look at this or any other audio forum to find thousands of posts from people frustrated and exasperated by their DAWs. This is, to a large extent, a non-issue with the stand-alone devices. They're not perfect, but their OS are optimized for their application and generally have fewer problems.

I'm certainly not anti-DAW. I have SONAR, plenty of plugs, a bunch of softsynths and all the other accouterments that go with the territory. As I said previously, ALL technology is a dead end. We're all constantly in a state of flux with our systems, adding software, upgrading this, replacing that. In a way, a box that offers a good complement of quality hardware with a stable OS is kind of a "safe harbor of consistency" in an ever-changing sea of over-hyped, under-optimized, frequently buggy, software that the new user is often set adrift in. Frequently, more is not necessarily better.

To each his own, of course. If they weren't both valid options there wouldn't be so many different programs and stand-alone boxes on the market. Obviously there's a demand for both.

All I've said from the start is that ALL of your hardware becomes obsolete, often much too quickly. Since a DAW is also hardware based, you'll just be spending your money to upgrade components instead of a complete unit. Think about it- How much money have you REALLY put into your DAW? I'll bet you can't even figure it out. Your computer has to be upgraded or, more likely, replaced every couple of years since upgrading the software puts ever increasing demands on the processor and memory, older OS have to be upgraded periodocally, all the additional things you mentioned will require additional hardware purchases- hard drives, memory, sound cards, better converters, speakers- to make good use of, upgrading the software isn't free, yadda, yadda, yadda. And every one of these changes has not only the potential, but the probability, of causing some unforseen problem somewhere else in your system.

So, I buy a DPS24 and I get 4-5 good years out of it. Akai doesn't show any signs of dropping support for it, as a matter of fact, they're revamping the physical design (well, they're really only changing the color) and releasing a new OS probably as well in the next few months. In that time, I'll probably have spent $2000-$3000 on computer related stuff. It's all the same.

Ted


Frankly, if I was trying to earn a living on this stuff, I don't think I would touch a DAW if only for the stability issues. I've seen a lot of posts from people who had a session about to begin and for some reason their DAW decided to quit on them. In a panic with a paying customer in front of them and a dead system on their hands.

 

[acorec]

Hi there. I'm thinking of purchasing an "all-in-1" workstation, and have narrowed it down to a few in my price range. Thought I'd post this poll to find out if anyone has owned 1 or a few of these machines and which one they prefer. Any feed back concerning ease of use, features, quiality of sound, etc. would be appreciated.

Depends on your plans and what you are going to do with it. If it is your hobby and you KNOW you will stop there, the all-in-ones will be fine. But, if you plan to upgrade anytime in the near future, you will lock yourself into any all-in-one unit fairly quickly. I use a mixer and a Fostex D2424LV with outboard pre-amps myself because I know I will upgrade when new thechnology becomes available. I also like being able to configure my recording chain with the high-end pre-amps, compressors etc.

But, that is just me. Some people just want to record the easiest and cheapest way. In that case, any of them should do you good.

 

[tedluk]

Why do you think you can't use outboard gear with an all-in-one? Depending on which unit we're speaking of, of course you can patch in different pre's if you desire.

First of all, if you check reviews and user opinions on the DPS24 you'll find that people feel that the pre's in it are way above average. It offers dynamics on all the channels as well, so I think, with a few exceptions, it would be usable even in most "pro" situations. (And, in fact, there are people using it to make "pro" recordings.)

The mixer functions on the DPS24 are extremly flexible. Nearly anything can be routed anywhere.

Ted

 

[acorec]

Why do you think you can't use outboard gear with an all-in-one? Depending on which unit we're speaking of, of course you can patch in different pre's if you desire.

First of all, if you check reviews and user opinions on the DPS24 you'll find that people feel that the pre's in it are way above average. It offers dynamics on all the channels as well, so I think, with a few exceptions, it would be usable even in most "pro" situations. (And, in fact, there are people using it to make "pro" recordings.)

The mixer functions on the DPS24 are extremly flexible. Nearly anything can be routed anywhere.

Ted

mOst all-in-1 units do not have inserts. The only way to by-pass the existing pre-amps in the digital input (which there are not enough if you track more than 2 at a time). So, the list of available high-end pre-amps becomes extremely limited because the pre needs digital outputs. This can be really expensive as most of the ones use optional cards that sell for some $$$.

The pres in any mixer/all-in-one -units do not compare to the ones I use and if you want to step up *alot* you will be forced to go to the digital inputs. The most they usually give you is 2. Kinda limits you severely if you ask me.

 

[tedluk]

The DPS24 has 4 inserts which can be patched directly to the ADC. It has S/PDIF and ADAT on the digital side and it offers an optional 16 channel ADAT expansion board to expand the digital I/O to 24 channels. The board sells for around $170.00. I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think the Aux in can also be assigned directly to the ADC.

Personally, since I work alone for the most part and what I create is not acoustic, this isn't an issue for me. I'm tracking keyboards directly into the unit or recording MIDI in SONAR.

I haven't actually gotten a DPS24 yet (it's a LOOOOONG story), so I don't have first hand experience, but I can only tell you that people are usually surprised by just how good the pres are in this unit. Most who have used other units state categorically that they are better than Roland or Korg.

There is no question that a digital hard disk recorder is going to have limitations as does all hardware. Because the system has limited expandability, there will be options that aren't open to you. All I've said from the start is that ALL technology is going to become outdated. You're talking about using high-end outboard pres. I'll bet they cost more than the whole DPS24!

And that's the point. If you're comparing a Boss BR1180 to a Protools rig we're just wasting our time aren't we? IRL most of us here have a mid-range computer with a good soundcard running one of several sequencer apps. Most of the soundcards out there have extremely limited input options, sometimes only a couple of pres of marginal quality. Few cards have more than 8 or 10 analog ins, the ones that do are quite expensive. By the time you create a system with similar abilities to something like the DPS24, I think you will have spent far more money. The advantage? Easier replacement of pieces of the system and control over every component.

A unit like the DPS24 offers a lot more than 99% of us will need at a reasonable price and will serve someone well for probably 3-5 years. Options for the unit in the pipeline include some kind of high-speed computer link-up either firewire or USB2. There is some talk that the new units coming out will have an additional removable drive bay. That might just be talk though. The new OS will have 5.1 support added as well.

What mixer are you using and what pres? Just curious.


Ted

 

[ikabodd]

My current setup has a duel TL Audio compressor pre and three duel Art mic pres running through the patch bay into two Pro Tools 888s. I generally pre with the TLA and use the Arts for additional micing beyond two. This all runs into my computer system, which is a Quadra 650 into a Digi expansion chassis for processing power, two external hds for audio, and a DDS-2 drive and Mezzo software for backing up, keeping the hard drives free. The software is Logic 3, and I've also got Sample Cell using two of the slots in the chassis.

Sorry, perhaps I should have explained my set up earlier in the post? Don't know if that really changes opion on the all in one units, though.

I know most would say that with what I have, I should just upgrade the mac and the software, because it is all component and upgradeable, but my problem is really dealing with the computer problems. I considered maybe just switching to a dedicated hard recording system and seperate mixer (I think Mackie makes some nice ones?), but I'd never be able to afford it anytime soon, from what I've seen with cost. (Actually, I would have to sell alot of the current setup just to afford the cost of the DPS.)

Anyway, sorry to ramble. From what I've seen I like the DPS, even if it means "down grading" from a component system. That is, unless anyone can recommend some good hard drive equipment to replace in the chain after the 888s, but that would mean a hard disk recording system and a new mixer... An upgrade I can't afford on my income alone, and I doubt I could sell the current system for much without including the 888s.

I appologize if this post didn't make sense. Perhaps it should be a new thread? Let me know what you think.