Advice needed for new preamp and soundcard

[Superhuman]

Not sure if this is the place to post this or not but here goes...

I'm streamlining my home setup, selling lots of old stuff to buy a small amount of new gear with no unnecessary frills. I need some advice on what to get.

I record all guitars DI via Rocktron Prophesy, bass via sansamp and drums are EZdrummer. Currently I am going direct through an M-Audio Delta 1010 but have started to notice that the sound quality is somewhat compromised. I recorded recently through an Apogee AD8000 in a studio with the exact signal chain and the sound was WAY better (brighter, more dynamic and less 'dull').

How do I capture DI as faithfully as possible without spending a fortune?

Bear in mind the setup I will be keeping includes the following hardware:
Rocktron Prophesy II, Palmer PDI-03 speaker sim DI box, sansamp bass DI driver, Eventide H3000 D/SE

I want to be able to hook all of the gear up and also use the Eventide for post recording effects. The Delta was handy because I could have up to 10 ins and 10 outs but there is no phantom power and no xlr's plus I was constantly pulling leads out and shifting them around during a project.

Do I need a separate preamp and soundcard or is there something else out there more suited (that will preserve the singal from the guitar chain)?

The engineer in the studio blamed AD convertors in the Delta for the degredation in sound quality in my home setup.

Thanks for any advice

 

[Superhuman]

.........Anyone?

 

[Minion]

He is True....The Apogee AD/DA Converters are Very High end compared to the Converters in the Delta 1010 so there will be a higher dynamic range and lower noise floor when useing a converter like the Apogee.......

If you feel your Converters are letting you down then look into saveing up for some Apogee or a Roseta converters.....


Cheers

 

[chessrock]

I record all guitars DI via Rocktron Prophesy, bass via sansamp and drums are EZdrummer. Currently I am going direct through an M-Audio Delta 1010 but have started to notice that the sound quality is somewhat compromised. I recorded recently through an Apogee AD8000 in a studio with the exact signal chain and the sound was WAY better (brighter, more dynamic and less 'dull').

Um ... that's because you were in a studio with an actual engineer ... as opposed to in your basement / bedroom with a monkey at the controls.

Funny how that works.

 

[Superhuman]

Um ... that's because you were in a studio with an actual engineer ... as opposed to in your basement / bedroom with a monkey at the controls.

Funny how that works.

Wow, that was so helpful... why the need for jokey insults in most of your posts? Especially when you obviously know a fair bit about engineering (I have read some of your more informative threads). I'm looking for information from people who know what they're on about, if you don't have an opinion then please don't waste your time posting.

Just to let you know, the signal chain from guitar through to output on the Rocktron was exactly the same in the studio and at home. My home setup is in a room with very little electrical interference. The takes in the studio that I did the AB comparisson with had no EQ changes or plug-ins that an engineer might do differently than a 'monkey'. Both takes were captured in 24bit by 44Khz wav - so the loss of quality obviously occured through the Delta 1010.

 

[chessrock]

When everything is going direct like that, then it's all just going to sound like a big ball of mess anyway, so what's the point?

And no, converters aren't going to make that huge of a difference in that situation. I question whether you have the chops in regards to gain-staging, routing, impedence matching, etc. The chances are just very high that there's something you skipped over in this process that an experienced guy would have caught. Not to mention the fact that the monitoring situation was likely worlds more accurate, allowing you to adjust/tweak some of the tones differently.

Are the Delta converters as good as an Apogee? Probably not, but in the situation you're describing, there isn't likely to be a drastically noticeable difference to the average person -- provided you use valid and carefully controlled a/b comparison methododology. AND NO ... comparing what you do in your bedroom to what you did in an actual studio ... is not going to qualify as apples / oranges.

I have dumbass rappers who come to me with their Tritons and fruity loops beats, and every time ... it's going to sound better if I'm doing the repro ... even if we're using the exact same stuff. Why? Because I know what the hell I'm doing. I'm going to run things at optimal gain-staging while the dumbasses are going to clip the crap out of it, use the wrong cabling or whatever the hell else it is they're doing (I have no clue ... but every time, without fail, I get the music convertet to 1s and 0s much more faithfully than they do ... and there ain't nothin' wrong with their converters either).
.

.

 

[kojdogg]

yeah gain staging is definitely important, but those differences you noticed-- that the sound was "WAY better (brighter, more dynamic and less 'dull')" makes me wonder if you haven't accidentally used unbalanced connections where they should be balanced and if it was done correctly in the studio. make sure that your cabling is trs where it should be and not ts and that input/output levels are set correctly.
if you're recording at 24 bit it will at least be a little more tolerant of lower input gain than at 16 bit where not setting the input gain closer to 0db could result in higher noise when you increase the volume of the overall song mix.

 

[Superhuman]

When everything is going direct like that, then it's all just going to sound like a big ball of mess anyway, so what's the point?

And no, converters aren't going to make that huge of a difference in that situation. I question whether you have the chops in regards to gain-staging, routing, impedence matching, etc. The chances are just very high that there's something you skipped over in this process that an experienced guy would have caught. Not to mention the fact that the monitoring situation was likely worlds more accurate, allowing you to adjust/tweak some of the tones differently.

Are the Delta converters as good as an Apogee? Probably not, but in the situation you're describing, there isn't likely to be a drastically noticeable difference to the average person -- provided you use valid and carefully controlled a/b comparison methododology. AND NO ... comparing what you do in your bedroom to what you did in an actual studio ... is not going to qualify as apples / oranges.

I have dumbass rappers who come to me with their Tritons and fruity loops beats, and every time ... it's going to sound better if I'm doing the repro ... even if we're using the exact same stuff. Why? Because I know what the hell I'm doing. I'm going to run things at optimal gain-staging while the dumbasses are going to clip the crap out of it, use the wrong cabling or whatever the hell else it is they're doing (I have no clue ... but every time, without fail, I get the music convertet to 1s and 0s much more faithfully than they do ... and there ain't nothin' wrong with their converters either).
.

.

Thanks for the informative reply, hope I didnt come across like an ass earlier. I admit I am no engineer, I like to set my gear up right then leave it. That's why I got the Rocktron Prophesy. The direct out on the unit is set specifically for studio recording - the level is set for optimal performance in DI mode 'straight to desk'.
The unit is the only thing in my setup now, I've been playing for about 15 years and this is the best unit I have ever owned. I used to have a Triaxis 2:90 combo and all sorts of other gear but I ended up with most of the problems you mentioned above, that's why I keep it simple now with a Prophesy.

Back to your point on going direct sounding like mush, it always did on any other unit I have used but the last track I recorded I decided to go through my 2:90 poweramp to a 4x12 Marshall cab. After 2 days recording the poweramp exploded in a ball of smoke so I had to finish the session direct. To be honest, there was very little difference beyond the character of the speakers themselves. The engineer was very experienced so it wasn't just a shitty mic setup in the live room. Not trying to sound like a salesman for Rocktron but direct out from the Prophesy is the most convincing I have ever heard (it even feels like playing through a real amp).

Assuming it's not my setting things up that is the problem (which it could still be), what kind of setup would you recommend as an upgrade from a Delta 1010 (without going over $1000)? Is a separate preamp and soundcard even necessary?

Cheers

 

[Superhuman]

yeah gain staging is definitely important, but those differences you noticed-- that the sound was "WAY better (brighter, more dynamic and less 'dull')" makes me wonder if you haven't accidentally used unbalanced connections where they should be balanced and if it was done correctly in the studio. make sure that your cabling is trs where it should be and not ts and that input/output levels are set correctly.
if you're recording at 24 bit it will at least be a little more tolerant of lower input gain than at 16 bit where not setting the input gain closer to 0db could result in higher noise when you increase the volume of the overall song mix.

Re unbalanced connections, I'm really not sure if there is something in my home set up that is wrong... I used the same guitar lead in the studio that I use at home - it's a good shielded cable (not sure of the brand). One thing that could cause a problem... I am using XLR to 1/4" jacks out from the Prophesy with 1/4" patch cables direct in to the Delta (damn unit has no XLR's which sucks). Could this be the problem? IF so, I still need some kind of upgrade to get away from having to go into the soundcard via 1/4" only...

 

[kojdogg]

yeah, it might be helpful to use something like an inline impedence transformer or an ebtech line level shifter (i think the hum eliminator can switch between unbalanced and balanced too). it's worth a try. it won't make up for the difference in converters of course.