adjust WHICH output to stop clipping

MusicWater said:
When it comes to the +0.1 dB boost, I'm mostly talking about the pre-mastered version, as I mentioned the difference depends on what the signal level is to begin with, which is the whole point. If you cannot notice this difference, you either are used to much more dynamic content or it's something else, such as you haven't paid enough attention, you monitor on much lower volume or your monitor/converter solution does not reveil it in the same way as in my case. I have a very high end monitoring chain and I'm always amazed at what as little as a +0.1 dB boost can do to the mix. The master bus gain staging is one of the more important things I do in mastering, simply due to this very reason. It's about finding that -0.1dB below audible clipping, just much enough to use the full capacity and just little enough to leave the transients nice and clean. It can be tricky, but when you truly find it, that's when it gets sweet! :)
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My monitor/converter situation is just fine. At the moment, it's Genelec 1031's fed by a Cranesong Avocet. What is your monitoring situation?

MusicWater said:
If you don't agree, that's fine, give it some time, maybe try it out. I have tried tracking cold, both with low end and high end converters and asked my friends about the result too. Initially you think it works, but soon you realize it doesn't.
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How soon is soon? I've been running line level signals into recorders for a couple decades without incident.

MusicWater said:
Now, there might be exceptions, like for instance if you record a 100% acoustic performance tracked really really well, but tracking hot will not cause any issues with those kinds of performances either when you know how to gain stage properly.
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What do you mean "100% acoustic performance". 99% of what I do is a mic in front of something that makes noise, which would qualify as an acoustic performance. If you are talking acoustic guitar and other such instruments, the high crest factor will prevent you from recording much over line level without clipping the converter. Same thing with drums and percussion and any other instrument with large transients, keeping the transients below clipping will naturally keep the bulk of the signal down closer to line level. So it's a non-issue.


MusicWater said:
But my conclusion has repeatedly been that when you track hot you know what you have and what you are doing. It's like it instantly gives you exactly the kind of information you need, so that you can make the right moves quickly and easily. The pre-mix process is a bit easier too because you can instantly hear where the potential is. For instance if you mix a pop ballad or something like that you might be interested in the quality of the electric piano, electric guitar and bass guitar. All of them might not have the desired mix characteristics, the electric piano might be quite hard sounding, the bass guitar might be a little flat, the electric guitar might be a little noisy. All of these qualities might go unnoticed when you receive softer versions of them, leading you in a direction when you assign a lot of mix signal to them and discover you ended up with a mix that is slightly hard sounding, a little flat and a little noisy, and you don't know why, so you target other sound sources like drums and vocals and it gets even worse. The mix sound you end up with has a lot to do with what the sound sources sound like at their full signal. When you fix that, then you'll more easily end up with great sounding mixes.
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None of this make one bit of sense, I can't comment.

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MusicWater said:
Next time you produce, try to do it with that flower in mind, just try and then let me know what you ended up with. I promise you'll start drinking the Kool-aid too. :thumbs up:
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Don't make promises you can't keep.
 
WHEW!!!!....thanks to all y'all....if you ever get near Houston then give me a shout and I'll cook up a mess of reeyubs and we'll have a party!!....One of the respondents mentioned compression as a way of knocking down the offending high-energy peaks....I have gone into a project and zoomed in on the offending note, lowered the volume on the first 5 ms or so and presto-zappo problem solved. I can see that if clipping is running rampant throughout then re-tracking is the right way to go BUT, if re-tracking isn't an option then would compression help?
 
Limiting would help, compression is generally too slow and could make the peak bigger by skipping over it and turning down the rest.
 
Clipping on an output usually occurs at the speakers. The inputs are where clipping is occurring that you can't get rid of. Gain staging is your friend. Inputs should always be set so the levels do not go over yellow and the output can be as high as you want as long as your input doesn't have to be turned down too low. I run my master outputs at unity and then adjust my inputs to accommodate the signal. On instrument line ins, I let the guitarist adjust his instrument volume, tell him to leave it there and then adjust the input to keep the levels in the green with a tickle here and there in the yellow. That guarantees the signal recorded will be clean. The faders control the sound to the headphones or speakers. When mixing the faders control the sound to the mixdown device (virtual or otherwise) Listen to all the advice as you go. Type avoiding clipping tutorials into youtube and download them to study. Get as much advice as you can. This is how I was taught and it always worked for me. I never get hash distortion. Good Luck,
Rod Norman
Engineer

whymark said:
just finished a rather raucus boogie-woogie .....2 mics on one piano....on playback the more "ambitious" parts jump over the "0" mark...OK so I back off the main ST OUT fader but leave the two mic IN faders as far up as I can get them without either of them approaching the dreaded Zone-of-Zero....now I have the main fader down to -30dB and the two mic faders at +6dB.....Is this the right way to go? or should I drop the two mic faders and raise the main fader?
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I'm going to amend this in this way. If an output is a digital signal, you should not allow that output to clip. Some of the other replies deal with the specific levels and the dBfs issues. If that confuses you, just watch your meters. Don't everdo one and try to fix it with the other. Suffice it to say that I never run my outputs above unity and the level never indicate any clipping. There's a lot of great advice available online as well as in some of the recording guidebooks and recording magazines as well. They would be helpful if you don't understand the advice you receive here. None of us really know how much you know. Good luck,
Rod Norman
Engineer

Rod Norman said:
Clipping on an output usually occurs at the speakers. The inputs are where clipping is occurring that you can't get rid of. Gain staging is your friend. Inputs should always be set so the levels do not go over yellow and the output can be as high as you want as long as your input doesn't have to be turned down too low. I run my master outputs at unity and then adjust my inputs to accommodate the signal. On instrument line ins, I let the guitarist adjust his instrument volume, tell him to leave it there and then adjust the input to keep the levels in the green with a tickle here and there in the yellow. That guarantees the signal recorded will be clean. The faders control the sound to the headphones or speakers. When mixing the faders control the sound to the mixdown device (virtual or otherwise) Listen to all the advice as you go. Type avoiding clipping tutorials into youtube and download them to study. Get as much advice as you can. This is how I was taught and it always worked for me. I never get hash distortion. Good Luck,
Rod Norman
Engineer
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